TRACEY NEWELL

>> Craig Gould: Tracey Newell, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast. Tracey you’re a seasoned executive board member, leadership advocate with a distinguished career in the technology industry. You’ve served as president at Informatica, you’ve held senior leadership roles at industry giants like proofpoint, Polycom, Juniper Networks, Cisco Systems. You currently serve on several public and private company boards. And you’re the author of the new book hers for the taking your path to the C suite and beyond, which is a guide designed to empower women to confidently pursue leadership roles and navigate that path to the C suite, which I like to talk about a lot on here is how do we get from where we are to the C Suite? Tracey? A lot of times in these conversations, I like to kind of go back and start at kind of the beginning of our careers, because I feel like in a. For whatever reason, our first jobs seem to inform, I don’t know if it’s inform our choices over the course of our career or, you know, our job first jobs chose us or we chose them, but I think they kind of tell us a lot about, or a little maybe about who we are. And so in the book, you describe a first job. I don’t know if that is the first job, but I think it’s interesting maybe how it fits in that context. Can you tell us a little bit about your first job, Tracey?

>> Tracey Newell: Yeah, sure, Craig. So, thanks for having me. And it’s kind of a funny story. I was certain I was on a path to be a lawyer. My dad was a lawyer. And so seemed like a logical next step. And I was in my senior year of college, and I needed, you know, I was taught if you want something, you can have anything you want in the world, but you just got to go get, get a job and work for it. And so I need some spending money. So I applied for a job. I’m going to date myself selling calling cards for AT&T. That was back in the day.

>> Craig Gould: It dates m. Me too, because I know exactly what you’re talking about.

>> Tracey Newell: Thank you. Thank you for going there with me. But for the listeners that are younger, back in the day, you needed almost like a credit card to make phone calls because you didn’t have cell phones in your back pocket. And so I said, I’ll sign up for these. And, I ended up running this program for AT&T. And I thought I was going to make five bucks an hour for two weeks. So, you know, $400. And that sounded like a good idea. what I found out is I was actually working on commission, and every time I sold a calling card, I got a dollar. And, it was pretty miserable. Nobody wanted to sign up for these things. And the short story, I tell the longer story in the book, but the short story is after a couple of days, I asked my friends, you know, there’s got to be an easier way to sell these things. Like, nobody wants these calling cards. I said, what do college want? And one of my guy friends said, beer. And I said, well, we can’t give away beer on campus. What else do they want? And another guy said, food. I said, that, might be a. There, there. And I went down to a cookie company. I said, what’s your cheapest cookie? And they said, well, we sell our day olds for 25 cents. And so I changed my whole marketing strategy. And friend of the university center said, hey, if you sign up for this calling card, you’ll get a free cookie. And all the college kids, I mean, we ran out. We were selling hundreds and hundreds over the course of two weeks. And at the end of two weeks, AT&T called me and said, what is happening? And I said, I don’t know. They want your calling cards. And they ended, up signing me for a year. And that was my introduction to sales. And I realized that I really like this idea of the harder you work, the more you’re rewarded and controlling my destiny. And, so I went into sales and I never looked back.

>> Craig Gould: Wow. Did you stick with AT&T or how’d that go?

>> Tracey Newell: I did, yeah, I stayed with AT&T. It was in the 80s. It was really hard to get a job in the 80s. And so I begged and borrowed and pleaded for them to hire me into this college program that they had started. And they did like to the point where when I, I got the offer the recruiters put me on speakerphone and they all cheered because I was driving them crazy calling every day. I was desperate and I stayed there for 10 years and it was instrumental, that was great training. I really learned what great leadership looked like because the leaders were all grownups. They’re all in their 40s and 50s and so they really understood what coaching and investing and developing people was all about.

The place where your network really uh, grew roots was at Cisco

>> Craig Gould: But it sounds like in the book that where you really cut your teeth and where your network really grew roots was at Cisco. Can you talk a little bit about becoming part of the Cisco family and what it was like in the mid-90s working for John Chambers? And what did you learn there?

>> Tracey Newell: So that was interesting. So I was at ah, AT and T. Spun out my division, it was called Lucent Technologies and I was in my early 30s and I was being promoted to run, basically manage about 250 people. So it was a pretty big job. And yet there was this thing called Cisco and there was this new thing again dating myself called the Internet. And Cisco stock was splitting two or three times a year. I thought, gosh, that ah, seems like there’s something there. I should probably check this company out. I said hey guys, I want to work for your company so badly. I’m willing to step back. I was managing managers. I said, I’m willing to be a first line manager, I’ll be a sales manager for you. And the director I was talking to, he said, I have a better idea, why don’t you come in as a sales rep? And I said, what? You know, a sales rep, that’s two steps backwards. I can’t do it. but Cisco was hiring, really, they were trying to hire people that could do the next job and the job after that because they were growing so crazily fast. And and so I finally stepped back and I said, you know what, I’m pretty young, I think I can afford to go backwards two levels. And so I always tell people that because to get into high growth, sometimes it’s worth it to go backwards, to move forward. And so I got in, I learned all about the Internet and a year later I got promoted. And then a year later I was back to running 2, 300 people. And folks always said to me, at Cisco, how did you get promoted twice in two years? And I always smiled and said, I didn’t. I got promoted over 12 years. You know, I mean, I had so much experience from AT&T and leading and managing. I had to just learn the skills specifically for this new industry that I didn’t know about. So going backwards to aggressively move forward in a high growth industry is sometimes a really good, important decision to make.

You talk about quitting Cisco to write a book about women in careers

>> Craig Gould: So you start the book at an interesting place, which is talking about, this is the book I was going to write 25 years ago when I was about to quit. Can you explain where you were in that moment, your mindset, maybe, what doors you thought were closed and what conversations changed your mind?

>> Tracey Newell: Yeah. So I felt stuck again. You know, fast forward a couple of years, mid-30s, and I was running, a public sector division for Cisco. I was one of the few in the country that was doing that. It was early days, they hadn’t gone there yet. today it’s billions and billions of dollars for them. But I was one of the first pioneers. Somebody made the comment, you’re never getting out of public sector because you are public sector for Cisco. They meant it as a compliment because I had really established that this was going to be a big investment area for the company. but I didn’t want to be pigeonholed like that. And so I was frustrated. And, one of the things I talk about in my book, I always knew, I learned over time that it was time for a change for me. When I had this sense of smoldering discontent, just this inside, this gut reaction of, I’m not excited anymore, I’m not jumping out of bed to do this job anymore. And that was a sign that it was time for a change. And so I, had decided I was going to quit and write a book to help women in their careers. and it would have been a terrible idea. So somebody was looking out for me. It wasn’t the right time. I didn’t have the experience. But, what happened is I was in my boss’s boss’s office. This guy was gentleman, his name is Doug Dennerlein. He was running North America for Cisco at the time. And because I was so frustrated with the company, I was ranting, this is wrong and this isn’t working and this is a mess and the company doesn’t understand the other thing. And I was really almost a little inappropriate, but I was quitting anyway. So I didn’t care. And, Doug stopped me halfway through the conversation and said, do you want to come work for me? And I kind of stopped. I said, doing what? And he goes, well, I’m thinking about putting a strategy job in place. And, you know, you could probably follow me around for three to six months, and then you could help, you know, help me scale, represent me a meeting. So, you know, I could be in two places at once. And, I kind of hesitated and thought, well, I’m quitting anyway, you know, so why not give it a shot? So, again, another, not a promotion. It was a lateral, which a lot of people don’t want to take laterals either, you know, let alone go backwards. But I. Doug followed through on his promise. I took the job. Everyone said I was crazy. They said, you’re going to be doing his dry cleaning. You’re going to be, like, you know, managing, his calendar. And I didn’t do any of those things. Like, he. He literally showed me how to run North America for a Fortune 100 company. And I learned more in 18 months than I learned in the previous decade. And so that changed my career forever. And so it really, you know, taking chances, taking risks in your career, I think is important. Calculated risks. and if you get a chance to really learn from somebody like that, you can go forward so much quicker than through the school of hard knocks.

M. I. North says people should be candid with their bosses about discontent

>> Craig Gould: One of the things I resonate with in that story is sort of this office space sort of, m mentality. I. I found myself in a role one time where I was so discontent, and I thought my career with this particular company was over, that I felt like I could just speak m my mind. And I feel like a lot of us, you know, are always kind of managing our careers from a place of fear. There’s this scene, office space, where the guy has been, you know, hypnotized and doesn’t realize the consequences of the things he says as he’s sitting in front of the people that are, like, laying everybod off. And he just says it like it is. Right. And how do we get to the point where we. Not that we have to be smoldering with discontent, but feel like we can take empowerment and, you know, speak with candor, because, I mean, it takes a certain amount of bravery or naivete to. To put yourself in that situation. Right.

>> Tracey Newell: I counsel a lot of folks on this, you know, because people are afraid to speak up when they’re unhappy. And if you’re struggling in your job, that’s different. If you are really Your boss is all over you, you’re having a terrible time, you don’t like your job, and you’re struggling to do your job, then it’s a little harder to say, hey, look, boss, I’m not very happy right now. M. But that wasn’t really the case. I was doing my job and doing it well in that position. That’s where I really encourage people that you can and should be candid if you feel like you’re not accomplishing what you need to accomplish. I mean, most managers, if they’re good at their job, and certainly your manager’s manager, if they’re good at their job, they want to know if people are unhappy. They actually want to know if you want to do more. So I tried to be very honest. I was running Fast Forward a couple of jobs later, I was running a, pretty large sales organization. It was global. I was still at Cisco, and again, I was frustrated. And my boss said, on a scale of 1 to 10, how frustrated are you? Different boss. And I said, oh, I’m probably an 11 or 12 right now. And he said, oh, really? the reason I was so honest, I was giving him a chance to respond. Does he want to help me fix this? Because if not, I was going to leave. And I did leave. But I always feel like it’s really important from a fairness standpoint to let your boss and your boss’s bosses know if you’re really unhappy, give them a chance, you know, to. To help you either solve the problem or if you want a new role, you know, laterals promotions, you know, people can’t help you if they don’t know what you’re looking for.

>> Craig Gould: Yeah, that’s something you speak about later in the book is, you know, when you get to the point where you start dealing with executive search firms and people reaching out to you, you reaching out to people. Can you give feedback to people about how to be transparent with your manager in those situations and the right way and wrong way to deal with leaving your options open?

>> Tracey Newell: Yeah, I never wanted to surprise anyone if I was thinking about leaving a company. I just don’t think that’s fair. I wouldn’t want that for me. So therefore, I wouldn’t want to do that to somebody else. And, I think it starts early in your career. I was just talking to, this young woman who is. She was talking about, how she had an internship, with a CFO for a company. And she said, yeah, I told the CFO in my interview, I want to be you Someday. And she goes, it was probably really inappropriate. I go, I bet that CFO, loved that. Here you are at 21 years old saying, I’m going to be a CFO someday. Because we all want to hire people that want to do the job and then do the next job and the job after. we want to hire people that are going to do the job we’re hiring for. But if you have ambitions, that means you’re going to work really hard, you’re going to try to go above and beyond to get that next promotion. And so we like that. So whenever I went into a company, I was very clear, hey, I’d like to be a director someday. I’d like to run North America someday. I’d like to be the president someday. I want to learn from you, Mr. CEO, so that I can be you. And most, most of the time again, if they’re a strong leader, they like that. that was the hiring requirement. At Cisco, we are only hiring people that can do this job and the next job and hopefully one more job after that. Like, I want to see those characteristics in you. so if you’re being honest with, hey, I want to crush it in this role because I’d like to be you someday, then it does also open the door where a couple times a year, you can have a career discussion. You’re not every month, but, you know, you can sit down and say, hey, boss, how am I doing? You know, what are three things that you’re happy about? What are three things you think I should be doing differently? And, you know, if I want to get promoted in the next 12 or 18 months, how do I do that? You know, can you give me a special project? And if you’re having those discussions, it becomes natural after, a period of time to say, look, I’ve been here now three years, and I was really honest. In two years, I wanted to get promoted. You know, do you see that happening? I don’t want to leave here, but I do. You know, I’m ambitious. I want to do more in the company. And if you have that conversation, you are basically telling them, if they don’t figure this out with you, you’re going to leave. And that’s okay. That’s a fair conversation. Again, you do have to be good in your job to have that conversation. For sure. If you’re struggling, that’s going to be a different discussion.

One of the many reasons why I write this book is to encourage men and women

>> Craig Gould: I think one of the interesting things that I see in your book, which I think is great for people to, is, I think, for, for a lot of us, we never feel like we’re equipped enough for maybe the biggest role. And I think there’s a, point in the book where you, you said those words out loud to a manager, you know, well, I don’t know if I’m cut out for this highest, you know. You know, to be in the C suite.

>> Tracey Newell: Yeah.

>> Craig Gould: That person kind of challenged you, right? Can you talk a little bit about how that conversation reframed how you saw the rest of your career?

>> Tracey Newell: So what I meant. One of the many reasons why I decided to write this book is really to encourage men and women to understand that you’re capable of so much more than, you know. And I naively thought when I was in my teens, 20s, that, you know, I kind of jokingly talk about, you know, how, you know, I thought people knew when they were 5 years old that they were going to run companies. You know, I didn’t know anybody that had run a company before. And so I thought you had to go to, I Ivy League schools, and your great grandfather ran a company, and your father, patted you on the head when you were 6 and said, you’re going to be running this company someday. And I was just very naive. And none of that is true. So I don’t have an mba. I didn’t go to Ivy League schools. I was not a straight A student, and I did pretty well in college. But in high school, I was just an average kid, who had a strong work ethic. And so the. One of the many conversations that reshaped my thoughts, you know, which you’re alluding to, Again, in my mid-30s, I went to meet with a mentor. she reported to John Chambers, which was a big deal. And, I said, hey, you know, I. I want to, I want to do something for the company. I want a new role, and I want to have more impact. And she started laughing and she’s like, what does that mean? So one of my challenges to everyone that’s listening is I would really encourage you all, to think 10 or 15 years from now, what would you, you know, if you took away fear, if you took away all of your obligations, you know, you’re running at 100 miles an hour. You have little kids, you have aging, you got all these things. If you took away all of the noise, what would you aspire to be? What would make you really excited? And that’s where this conversation went. So this mentor said, do you end. Do you want to, you know, do you want to be A CEO someday? No, no, no. You know, I don’t want to do that. You never met any of those people before. well, do you want to run sales for Cisco? And I was 35 years old, and I was shocked. You know, I said, no, I don’t. I don’t have the skills for that. And she said, give me another reason. And I said, I have two little kids under six, and I. I don’t want to be on the road. I don’t want to miss that. You know, I don’t want to mess up my marriage and. And this long list. And she said, well, in 10 or 15 years, when your kids are in high school or college, would you do it then? And it was just this stunning conversation to me. I just was shocked because here’s this very senior person asking me if I want to run a company. And so she clearly saw something in me that I didn’t see. I never occurred to me. and I certainly was so caught up in the craziness. Like, in your 20s and 30s, you’re just still trying to learn how to do your job, you know, let alone run a company. And this idea of 10 or 15 years from now, would I give myself permission when I didn’t have the same level of obligations from a family standpoint that I did at the time? I kind of stammered out a maybe, you know, and she said, so here’s the deal. I want you to get the experience in the next 10 to 15 years so that you have that option down the road, which is exactly what I did. And so most people, we hold ourselves back just because we only know what we know. We only know our own experiences. If you don’t know anybody who’s a president of a company or a CEO, how in the world would you think you could do it? Well, I’m here to tell you there is no driver’s license test to be a CEO. It’s a question of, do you want it? Are you prepared to work for it? And then you got to get the experiences that a board and a management team would give you that option.

I think having a mentor is critical to success in any job

>> Craig Gould: Can you talk about? I. I think I’ve always thought this is just really critical. And I feel like some people are lucky enough to. To find themselves working under the right person and, you know, others not, but just the role of. Of having a great mentor. And if you’re lucky enough, that mentor being the person that’s one or two rungs above you that you can move with them. again, if you’re. If you’re operating in a vacuum, you didn’t know what you didn’t know, but this person saw something in you and wanted you to equip yourself for what that role was going to be. But you also had to have somebody kind of keeping tabs to make sure you were checking all the boxes on the road to becoming everything you needed to be when the time came. Right?

>> Tracey Newell: Yeah.

If you don’t have a mentor, you need one

So for the people listening, your followers, if they don’t. If you don’t have a mentor, you need one. and I, I do believe mentors change over time. Based, you know, sometimes if you’re lucky, they’ll be with you the whole, the whole ride. But oftentimes you need different mentors for different experiences at different places in your career. And, if you’re lucky, as you said, sometimes, you know, I was lucky at least once, probably twice, where someone tapped me and said, hey, you know, I see something, I want to help you. but there’s other times where it’s very common. You just go find someone. you touched on it, Craig, perfectly. Ideally, it’s somebody who’s one or two levels above where you are. there was a senior vice president, Cisco, who, once told a group of my managers, he said, hey, you guys don’t want me as your mentor because I might get you fired. And he was kidding. But he wasn’t because he reported again into chambers. And so he could do and say things that maybe a first line leader couldn’t. so one or two levels above is perfect. And then ideally, outside of your reporting chain, and then I often get asked, how do I find, how do I get a mentor? And it doesn’t have to be awkward calling somebody up saying, hey, would you be my mentor? Especially if they’re a stranger. That’s a big ask. Wait a minute, I’m busy. But calling somebody up or texting email to say, hey, I really respect you, and I could use some career advice. And can I get 15, 20 minutes on your calendar? Most people will say yes to that. And then, you know, just make sure, you know, you own that time. Don’t show up and say, okay, Craig, what should I do today? You know, like, you know, if you ask for the time, it’s your agenda. So plan, you know, what, what is the, you know, I want to run North America someday. I would like to be a GM of the product group someday. What, are three things that helped you, you know, Mr. Ms. Mentor together? And then for the women listening, women always want women mentors. And there’s just not enough of them. So, most, like a lot. Most of my really influential mentors, they were men and I, I learned more from them. You know, I laughingly say men are from Mars, women really are from Venus, and they’re great planets, but we think so differently. If you aspire to get to the C suite, most of the C suite is men. So you need to have male mentors in your career. if you want to really step on the gas.

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You talk about creating your own advisory board for you as an executive

>> Craig Gould: Is it possible to have a mentor and they not know that they’re a quote unquote mentor? I mean, is it possible that you’re just booking a lunch with them, once a quarter and you’re asking them three or four salient questions? Or does it need to be just one person at a given time for a given season? Or should I think there’s a point in the book where you talk about creating your own advisory board for you as an executive. What, different shapes can this mentorship take?

>> Tracey Newell: Yeah, a mentor at some point is just someone that you can count on formally and informally, ad hoc, to say, I have an interview today, I don’t know what to do. Help me. What should I say? Can I try my elevator pitch on you? but, they can take on lots of different shapes and sizes, to your point. And I do differentiate between a mentor and advisor. If you have a board of advisors, that’s probably four, five, six people that are with you for a very long time. you probably don’t meet with them very often, maybe a couple of times a year. But when you need them, they’re references for you for jobs. These are senior people that, and they can be inside or outside of your company, but, they’re with you for a very long time. I don’t think you have to make it formal to say, you know, you are my mentor and, you know, can we meet once a quarter? I think to your point, it can be very informal to say, hey, this has been so helpful. What a great meeting. I took a ton of notes. These are the three things I’m going to follow up on. Can I follow up with you in 90 days just to tell you what happened and, and to get a little more feedback from you? And, you know, all of a sudden you’ve got. You’ve got a mentor or two that’s helping you along the way.

>> Craig Gould: In the book, you, you talk about how you start working towards that higher tier. When you’re just about there, the opportunity starts kind of presenting itself, and you still had this, I don’t want to say imposter syndrome, but, you know, this sense that, you know, I think one of the things that you mentioned was, well, I don’t know if I have enough financial acuity to pull this job off. And a mentor said, well, that’s not your job. That’s the CFO’s job. Can you talk about realizing and learning, about managing with influence versus trying to be equipped for all of it?

>> Tracey Newell: Yeah. So imposter syndrome is very real. It’s real for CEOs. A friend of mine does a lot of public speaking and exec coaching, and he listed five reasons that CEOs feel like they’re short on something. What are the five things that I need to get better at? And the number one is I’m not enough for CEOs. So if you’re an individual contributor or a sales manager, my gosh, imposter syndrome is real at all levels. And you’re right. What was happening is I was working for a CEO. and I joined back to my own advice. I had said, I will come in here and, fix sales, was his words. Can you please come fix sales inside my company? And in return, I was going to learn how to be him because he was the CEO and founder, and I thought I was going to go do a CEO gig. And so about a year or two in, he said, are you still going to go do the CEO thing? And I said, I think so. I said, but I don’t feel strong enough on the financials. And, when we’re talking to investors, I feel like I just need to be a little bit punchier. And he started laughing, and he goes, Tracey that’s a CFO’s job. You just have to hire a great CFO’s job. So I have imposter syndrome. Everybody does. I, would say the best way to work through it. A friend of mine, Blair, Christie, said, in the book, her advice was take your inside voice outside. Basically, so take all these worries of like, oh, I’m not good enough on the financials, which I did to my CEO, and he’s like, what are you talking about? That’s dumb. That’s not what the job is about. So whatever it is that is telling you I’m not enough, go to a friend, a mentor, a sibling, a partner, somebody, and say, I’ve got this voice. I really want to do this. But this is the chatter. And we would never say to our worst enemy sometimes the things that we say to ourselves. So if you bring your inside voice out, people will help you to get work through that. in terms of managing through influence, I think that’s critical to me. That’s the easiest way to make it to the C suite, because at the end of the day, the people in the executive suites are 100% influence. If you’re a first line manager, you can call your people every day, hey, how’s it going? Did you do this? if you’re a second line manager, it gets harder. And third, fourth line, forget about it. You cannot touch all the people. So, you know, I learned a long time ago, you know, partly through the school of hard knocks. You know, I went through a time where I was in a tough job and I started micromanaging like crazy. And while our results were pretty good, I kind of looked behind me and went, I don’t think anyone’s following anymore. I think they’re all mad. I don’t want to be that person. I really learned to get people involved in problem solving. my new title that I’ve been giving out to everybody because everyone wants to be a chief. You got the chief executive officer, and then you have a lot of other chiefs reporting to the CEO. So I’ve said everybody’s a chief now you’re chief problem solver, cps. And if you can become the CPS for your company, you will crush your job. So every company has problems. Every CEO is talking about. These are my three initiatives. This is how we’re going to break away and differentiate. If you can attach to something that your VP cares about and say, this is really broken, I think I can fix this. What if I got the smartest people and sales, marketing, product finance to all work on this thing that’s driving all of us crazy. And what if I told my boss’s boss, I want to go work on this and I’m going to come back, we’re all going to report back in 90 days to say, hey, these are the things that we think we should change to help the company go faster. That is leading through influence. And if you can master this chief problem solver skill, you’ll get promoted more. Be careful what you wish for, because you’ll get promoted more than you maybe want to be promoted, because that’s what companies need. They need people that are, are able to win hearts and minds and get everybody wrapped around a common cause to help the company go faster.

You talk about the importance of work-life balance in women’s careers

>> Craig Gould: I would love for you to talk about all the different ways that are specific to a woman’s journey up this mountain, but kind of specific to one of the things you said, which is kind of that inside voice. I feel like one of those inner voices, for female is, I don’t have the time. I’m not going to have the time with my kids. I’m not going to have the time to, quote, unquote, have it all. I thought it was interesting. You know, you talk in the book about coming to the realization that once you’re up at the top of the hill, you have more flexibility in carving out time. And so it’s, it’s kind of a, fallacy in a way that the time’s not going to be there. Can you talk more about, some of those issues?

>> Tracey Newell: Yeah. So, a different boss and, good friend. And he says, hey, Trace, I put you up for a VP job. And I said, no, that’s okay. I’m good. I like working for you. Which is just crazy. Who does that? And, he looked at me and he said, Tracey you could have a really good career if you just got a little more serious about it. And sometimes when I would say that in front of an audience, that people would gasp when I go, oh, yeah, that’s so brutal. But he wasn’t being tough, he was being a friend. And that he’s saying, like, I don’t understand why a VP job at Cisco was running a billion dollar business. Like, who turns that down? And I was turning it down because this imaginary voice, again, which is just fear, that’s all that imposter syndrome is. It’s just fear chirping in your ear with good intentions, trying to protect you. It’s trying to keep you out of trouble. but it oftentimes doesn’t Tell the truth. And the inside voice was saying, if you take that job, you’re going to travel 80% of the time, you’re never going to see your kids again, you’re going to mess up your marriage, all these things. I finally did take the job. It took me probably two years longer than it should have, but I finally did take the job. And I laugh now because I’m like, if anybody can find a job requisition that says if you take this job, you will never see your family again and you’re going to have to travel. You know, like, there’s no such thing. Like, that was in my head, it was made up. And so I, I finally did take the job. And exactly to your point, all of a sudden I learned I had more control because I was the boss. So if I needed to travel because it was important, I traveled. But if it was a waste of time, I said, no, let somebody else go, take that, that meeting or handle that. I’m not going to do that. And, you know, so work, life balance is something that gets in the way, I think, especially men and women, but especially for women. And the other thing I would say back to my earlier point on playing the long game, you know, I use my own example of two small kids. If your life is a little crazy, like for men and women, 20s and 30s, is the hectic time. You know, more questions than answers. You know, we’re running so hard, but in 10 or 15 years, it will not be that way. You will have mastery of your skills, and you will have more time if you’ve been raising a family that they do ultimately, God willing, grow up. And so, give yourself permission to think about it and give yourself the courage to say it out loud. Hey, Craig, I want to be a VP someday. When you say things like that to people in powerful positions, they will look at you differently and they will give you projects that they wouldn’t have given you otherwise. They’ll give you experiences that they wouldn’t give you otherwise.

>> Craig Gould: Yeah, but, you know, I feel like it starts with, before you can say that to the person across from you, you’ve got to stand in the mirror and say it to yourself. Because you’ve, ah, got to, you’ve got to own it. You have to, you know, kind of convince yourself that you’re capable and you’re worth it. And part of that is just hearing the words come out of your mouth, right?

>> Tracey Newell: Yeah. but that’s where mentors, friends, peers, boss’s boss, Those kind of people can help you too, you know. So, you know, just even to ask that question in a safe environment with people that you trust to say, is it totally crazy? Like, could I do this? You know, one of my friends, I, I actually dumbed it down a little bit in the book. What really happened is one of my friends, when we were coming up the ranks, we worked together in five companies and he said, Tracey you’ve really ruined the senior executives for me. And I go, excuse me? He goes, well, you’ve taught me that anyone can do those jobs. Even incompetent people can do those jobs. And I started laughing. I go, I can say that. And he goes, well, no, but I think most people have this impression that it’s like you’re born into it and it’s really not true. It really starts with the drive of, I think I want to do this. And then you have to work hard and get the experience.

>> Craig Gould: Well, if we’re a mid level manager and we’re worth our salt and we’ve got skins on the wall and we’re doing our job right, our email boxes in our, our, our phone voicemail, boxes are going to start filling up with executive search guys. What advice can you give to those people that are actively managing their career in terms of managing those relationships? Because those, those relationships can be just as fruitful as some of those mentor relationships for sure.

>> Tracey Newell: I, it’s funny because people are really short sighted when it comes to how powerful and how important executive sear are and they, they tend to treat it almost transactional, these relationships. And I, I would strongly encourage everyone not to do that. So I always say when an exec search person reach out, call them back, email them back every single time. I don’t have time to. Yes, you do. It will take you five minutes to go, hey, you know, I don’t know that this is the right role for me, but I’m happy to jump on a call and help you with my network because what’s going to happen when you do that is they all have databases and they’re going to say, well, what is important to you? And then if you give them two or three names of somebody that’s left your company that you respect, they’re going to love you forever. And so when it does come time where you pick your head up and you go, you know what, it’s time for me, I got to grow a little bit more. It’s time for me to make a change. You now have a network of hopefully 50, 60 friends that are going to do anything in their power to land you in the best job where you’re going to thrive. So yeah, I think people can be really short sighted on that. And I quote, Kelly K. In my book. He leads the software practice for hydrics and struggles. He’s hugely influential and he’s a good, good friend of mine and he taught me so much about how to. I laughingly say when people call me all the time and they say, hey, I want a new job. I’m on. No you don’t. You want a great new job, great big letters, great. You don’t want to jump from the fire to the frying pan into a job that you hate and become that job hopper. So, you know, just getting clarity on your criteria. I mean, moving on to a new job is a whole different conversation. That’s a really important process.

In every chapter you profiled another woman leader that shared similar ascent

>> Craig Gould: Well, I, I think what’s great in your book that in every chapter you profiled another woman leader that shared a similar ascent and pick their brain about what experiences they had. Can you kind of mention, a couple that, that really kind of stick with you that are really great examples of how a woman is, you know, navigated, the, the minefield and successfully made the climb?

>> Tracey Newell: Yeah, I, there’s so many. I’ve been really fortunate to know what started as friends because I was at Cisco. Well, my whole career is in tech, which is primarily all men because they’re engineering companies and women don’t go into stem. So when I did find another person that looked and sounded a lot like me, we stuck together. And 30 years later, these women have gone off and done incredible things. I tried to make the book very practical and tactical. How do you set a North Star? Or how do, do you break away from the pack? How do you hire differently? How do you find your sense of style, build influence, management skills? And so to your point, there’s a woman on each chapter who’s now doing board work or running a Fortune 100 company. And she does advice to my younger self and so there’s some great ones. I, love what Heidi Millen said. Heidi’s a cmo. I think four or five of her companies got bought by Oracle. She had a very good run. And, Heidi talked about imposter syndrome when she was first offered a big job and she was scared to take it. And it was actually her husband who said, basically, tell yourself a different story. Instead of talking about how hard it’s going to be, why don’t you talk about how amazing it’s going to be. Why can’t you do this? I thought that was pretty cool. Sheila Jordan is a Chief Digital Officer for Honeywell. She reports into the CEO and she talks about every promotion. Don’t be afraid to ask for a promotion. And she said every promotion and raise I got, I pretty much asked for that. And here she’s working at a Fortune 100, having, huge impact as a result. So lots, of great advice from some really amazing women.

>> Craig Gould: If we play our cards right and we make it to the C suite, when you start shifting, you know, the gears back down, a logical next step for a lot of the senior managers is making it to the boardroom.

A lot of people don’t know a lot about what boards do

Right?

>> Tracey Newell: Yeah.

>> Craig Gould: And it’s such a small subset of the professional world that I feel like a lot of people don’t know exactly what all goes on in the boardroom. That it, it’s like a black box. People don’t know a lot about what, you know, directors on a board do, what the different committees are. If someone listening to this is in their 10th year as a C executive and they’re, you know, they can see that end coming in. Boards are in their future. What advice would you give to them? What insight would you provide to them for understanding it and navigating it?

>> Tracey Newell: Yeah, boards. The boardroom can be a bit mysterious I think, to, to many. and so I do try to demystify in the book and for anyone who is in the C suite or aspires to do board work, I actually dedicated a chapter to how to do it and how to choose wisely. Because just like an operating job for a board, it’s a, it’s a longer term commitment. If you choose an operating job and two years and you don’t like it anymore, it’s pretty acceptable. You can make a switch. on a board you’re in for usually a three year term and, and you’re probably going to do two or maybe even three terms. You know, CEOs don’t love to change their board members because it’s a lot of work and it takes a while to onboard. So you know, at the end of the day this, the board is usually, you know, can vary the size but it’s normally at least six to eight people. Sometimes it’s bigger. and I’m talking about for profit boards, non profit boards are different and a bit easier to access. but really what you’re doing, you know, the core of the job is you are there to hire the CEO and if necessary make changes to do succession planning, on future CEOs, that’s your primary job, but you’re also there to do governance, for the company. There are committees as you mentioned. There’s always an audit committee that’s checking the financials and providing governance to make sure that the company is well run, and passing all the regulatory requirements if it’s public. And then there’s a compensation committee that’s managing the CEO and the ELT’s compensation, and then they’re there to do strategy. So the management team will present, this is what we’re doing and this is where we’re headed. And then the board is there to help build out the strategy, or support the strategy and give guidance and counsel. What the board is not there to do is to operate the company. And that’s, that’s what for first time board members. That’s always a big fear for the CEO and the other board members that you’re not clear on, on what your requirements are, which is really there for purely governance and for coaching and guidance. and then you know I do get asked often what kinds of people, like how do you get on the board? So for sure you need to see in your title. and, and most boards consist of, because there is an audit committee, they usually want a cfo, could be retired, could be currently in the role. Oftentimes a sitting CEO will join a board. more recently because of all the cyber issues, chief security officers or CISOs are joining boards. And then someone like me will join the board to help the CEO with go to market strategies and to help accelerate top line revenue. So those are, those are very common. Sometimes HR will join to help with talent and organizational design, organizational structure. but that’s a little bit about what doing board work’s all about.

>> Craig Gould: You mentioned that that’s kind of the, the for profit but you know, on the nonprofit side, you know there’s the opportunity to, to bring all that professional experience to a place where you know, you’re now able to put it into something that you either have a passion for or feel like is part of your purpose or part of, of your spiritual beliefs. And so I, I imagine there’s a certain amount of freedom or excitement about bringing your, your lifelong skills to what’s a bit of a passion project.

>> Tracey Newell: For sure. Yeah.

Your new book is From Success to Significance. Is it out out, or is it, like, pre order

There’s really three big ideas or parts to the book. The, the first, you know, 25, 30% is the inspiration piece. So to anybody, just the fact that they’re following you, Craig, means that you’ve got this little glimmer burning of, hey, I want to do C suite stuff, maybe, which is amazing. So, a big piece of the book is to say, you can do it. If I can do it, you can do it. So let’s go. And then half of the book is just very practical strategy again. How do you set winning strategies? How do you hire. Build out your team appropriately? just very practical, tactical ways to set yourself apart. And then the last piece of the book, the third component, I called it From Success to Significance, which is actually a term I borrowed from an author named Bob Buford. But, I really want to challenge the reader that your career is important. It was obviously important to me, but it doesn’t define you. It’s not your identity. I really want to challenge the reader to get. Get clarity on what is the legacy. What do you want to be known for? I didn’t want to be known as a really good career person. I’m proud of what I accomplished, but that’s not who I am. And so for me, it’s my faith, my philanthropy. But for the reader, it could be your health, it could be travel. What do you want to be remembered for? And get clarity so that you can work those big rocks in throughout your life, not, wait for this imaginary retirement day. yeah. And so I do talk a lot about philanthropy because I am so passionate. People that build companies have great, great skills that can be applied to the nonprofit world. And there’s so many amazing causes, but they’re having trouble scaling this idea of whatever they’re doing to help. and so I’m involved with Bridge Rwanda and an organization called Forward. and any work that I do with them, it isn’t work. It’s just a pure labor of love. You know, it’s really. I enjoy trying to make a difference. And, so for any reader, for any of your followers that have an interest in that, you know, I. I am very big on trying to give back.

>> Craig Gould: Tracey again, I appreciate your time so much. I really appreciate you being my guest. The. The book is hers for the taking. Your path to the C suite and beyond. Is it out out, or is it, like, pre order?

>> Tracey Newell: Yeah, it came out two weeks ago, so, yeah, it’s out on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Audible, Kindle, all the things.

>> Craig Gould: Awesome. And so, you know, I’ll try to have a link to, Amazon or some other bookseller. But, Tracey I really appreciate your time. This has been golden. And just thank you for being my guest today.

>> Tracey Newell: Well, thank you. Thank you for all you’re doing to lift up others. Craig gets pleasure. Awesome.