LINH PETERS

>> Craig Gould: Linh Peters, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast. Linh You’ve spent over 25 years leading marketing brand and growth strategies at, some of the US’s most iconic brands, including names like Starbucks, Calvin Klein, Walgreens. And I wanted to dive into everything around the plight of the CMO and how we manage brands and how, how do we wrap our arms around data and. But Linh I love to start these conversations with one common question, which is, Linh what are your memories of your first job?

>> Linh Peters: That’s a really wonderful question. you know, so my memories of my first job, I will tell you just a little bit of background and context. So my family immigrated to the US in 1980, and like a lot of folks that, you know, were immigrating from other countries. My parents came here, you know, really to, you know, like, fulfilled the American dream. And so I think from my parents, you know, I learned from an early age, you know, the value of hard work, you know, really, you know, being responsible and accountable and, you know, finding ways to, you know, I think add value, right, whether to a community or to a neighborhood or whatever that is. And so I actually had my first job when I was 14 years old, because, you know, I was like, I’m going to go out and I’m going to, you know, make money, whatever that, whatever that might look like. And so my first job, was a 14 year old, was actually at a retailer which I think is no longer around. I grew up in Minnesota, and it was basically, like a nursery plant store. So it was called Frank’s Nursery and Crafts. And I was basically a cashier. And so it was my first summer job. And you know, I remember, you know, really enjoying it, right? I got to work with people, I got to, you know, interact with other team members. I got to really kind of understand, you know, how a business runs. But I remember distinctly, like having one moment in my, in my job where I had to count, out my, my cash drawer back in the day when we used to have cash. And I remember like being off in my cash drawer and I was panicking, you know, and it was like my first moment where I was like, oh my gosh, like, okay, there’s, you know, a lot of, a lot of things that you have to really kind of understand about a job. But, you know, for me it was really, it taught me, you know, sort of the basics and the foundations of being responsible, being a team member of, you know, communicating, showing up on time, sort of those basic things. and it really, you know, I think for me just kind of was a life. Now, 25 some years later, I still carry some of those, you know, those lessons and sort of those experiences, into, you know, my career that I’ve had.

>> Craig Gould: I’ve heard you speak before about your family’s journey, which is, I mean, it’s really inspiring. And it reminds me. I remember one job I had, I sat next to a guy and we. We were on the phones like 8, 9, 10 hours a day. And I remember he had a photo in his cube of his grandfather in the mid-1930s with his hands on a plow behind a mule in the field of his farm to remind him that regardless of how bad a day could be on the phones, it’s better than, you know, there’s no room for complaining compared to what his granddad know, went through. And I’m just wondering, given your family’s journey, do you carry anything around, either literally or just kind of in your heart or your spirit that kind of reminds you of your journey and where you’ve gone and where your journey began?

>> Linh Peters: Yeah, I mean, I, I definitely do. And I think I actually, So I. Gosh, it was probably maybe like five or six years ago. you know, I actually wanted to, do something meaningful like that, you know, anything growing up, you know, like, as you go through kind of your adolescence, everyone, like, I’m going to get a tattoo and I’m going to, you know, get it whatever of, you know, the thing, and I’m out with my friends and I’m drinking, whatever, and I actually decided like, late in my life, in my 40s, that I was going to get my first tattoo. And so I thought really long and hard about what I wanted to do. And, so my family immigrated, from Vietnam to the U.S. we boarded a, cargo ship. It was called the Sky Look. and it was actually, That journey was actually chronicled in a National Geographic article. I learned this years later, but for me it was just like such a, ah, immense symbol of, like you said, everything that my parents had worked for, you know, the sacrifices that, that they had made, they had sold everything to by passage on this boat. You know, we, we got, we. It was very kind of harrowing. We got stuck in Hong Kong harbor. We were kind of, in the harbor for six months, and we’re starving and hungry and everything. And so that for me was, you know, very symbolic of, just everything that my parents have sacrificed you know, everything that they have done to give me and my sisters this amazing opportunity, in the United States. And so I actually tattooed, the skyluck on my wrist. And it was, for me, just like every day, you know, when I’m having a hard day, when things aren’t going my way, when I’m frustrated by something, I’m able to just look down and just be reminded. Right. And to your point, it’s just like that, that, that just sort of like that gut check of like, hey, regardless of how bad something is, like, you know, like, you, you came from this place, your parents came from this place. They work so hard. And it just reminds me to, be grateful in the moment and really kind of just like, you know, kind of recenter myself, because nothing, nothing is as bad as, you know, sort of that situation that they came from.

>> Craig Gould: What drew you into marketing? Where, where did it start? I. I’m of the generation that marketing today is nothing like it was at the start of my career. And I wonder, you know, a marketing professional’s career, it seems like you’re constantly drinking from a fire hose to keep up with how marketing’s adapting over the last couple of decades. Right, Right.

>> Linh Peters: No, I, I would 100% agree. I think if you tried to, you know, articulate what marketing is today in, you know, like a, A class or, you know, sort of like a college major, I think it would difficult. Right. And I actually think that what, you know, students are learning today, I think is vastly different than what I learned. Right. When you and I were in college and we were learning about marketing. for me, I actually, I kind of fell into marketing because I think marketing is one of those things that I think when you ask people what the definition of marketing is, you may get a million different answers. Right. So there is no consistency in how you describe marketing. The same way that you might describe finance or accounting or operations. Right. I think that that is probably part of the challenge of how you define what a marketer is today. for me, I mean, I started out my career in public and public relations and advertising. And so I don’t think even the word advertising exists today because I think when you think of advertising, it’s like, you know, bus stops and billboards and things like that. And so when I started out in public relations, you know, for me it was like, it was very much, you know, you’re kind of at the end of whatever that, you know, execution of a go to market strategy is. Right. And so you’re, you’re, you’re constantly, you know, you’re calling editors, you’re trying to get, you know, a story covered. And I just remember, in my, after I graduated and I was doing this work, I was always curious about like the why. I’m like, well, why did we decide to go down this path? Like, why did we decide to build this communication strategy? And so when I went back to business, school to get my mba, I really was curious about the why, you know, like, how do we decide this customer, this story, sort of this strategy. And so for me, when I was in business school, I ended up studying marketing and strategy, because I was really curious about that. And then, on top of that, I was always very curious about the consumer, right? Because I think consumers are fascinating because they will tell you one thing, and you look at the data, but then their behavior could be completely different, right? So you’re constantly trying to, you know, navigate. What I feel like is the tension between what they tell you that they’re going to do or what they want and then what they actually do. and so when I graduated, I had the opportunity to go work at Best Buy. and at that time they were the number one CE retailer in the country. You know, they were this amazing company. It was almost like this very established organization, but very much a startup mentality within the organization. So they actually had a rotational program for their MBA hires. And so every 12 to 18 months you would move to a different part of the business. And when I first started, I tell everybody that I started in loyalty marketing. And loyalty marketing at the time was very niche, right? It was very, I would say, like execution focused. It was very specific to marketing. But if you look at the tenets of what loyalty marketing is, you know, it is, focusing on the customer, right? Really understanding consumer needs, consumer behaviors, it is taking data and insights and making informed business decisions. So like, how do you kind of understand, you know, the customer behavior and tying that back to a business and then ultimately you’re looking to drive long term engagement, you’re looking to drive, you know, long term customer value. And so I feel very fortunate to have started in that space because if you fast forward today, that is essentially what every, every brand in company is trying to do, right? Those are the things and the problems that they’re trying to solve. And so I think for me, when I think about marketing, you know, there’s an element of, you know, creative and brand. But marketing, I feel like has fundamentally Shifted to be much more business oriented. And I think in a lot of ways, I don’t know if the job descriptions and the responsibilities have necessarily caught up to that.

>> Craig Gould: Was it your success and loyalty that took you rung and rung up the ladder? That each opportunity was looking back at your success in managing loyalty? Was that the kind of the through line and loyalty became more and more important and helped you rise in the ranks because of just how important loyalty has become in marketing?

>> Linh Peters: I would say that I think it was, it sort of, I think started out as the three throughput, but I think ultimately it was really my understanding and curiosity about the consumer and really thinking through, you know, things like what are the customer problems that we’re trying to solve? How do we think about, you know, the customer journey? What is that customer experience that we ultimately want to build? And obviously as a marketer and as a cmo, you play a very, very strong role in that. But that also requires you to really take an enterprise lens to things. And so I think as I moved through my career, I started in loyalty. I moved into, you know, sort of aspects of, you know, financial services and you know, really understanding the customer and leveraging data. But as I moved into what I would consider to be like full stack marketing organizations and roles, that was incredibly helpful. Right, because there was always the conversation about the customer and how do we better understand the customer, how do we create the products and services and experiences that customer wants? And then how do you actually, you know, measure the impact, you know, in terms of, you know, customer acquisition, customer retention, customer engagement?

>> Craig Gould: When we look at the types of organizations that you, you worked for, I mean, I can see similarity in Best Buy and Target and Ulta. But then, you know, we start looking at organizations like Starbucks, Calvin Klein, Walgreens. Those from the outside can seem rather disparate. Well, I guess my question is like, what, what are the similarities and what are the differences, you know, from a, from a marketing perspective in terms of, you know, the customer journey and like, what data points you’re trying to key in on and how you’re able to influence ultimately buying decisions? Right, right.

>> Linh Peters: I would definitely say that. I think, you know, my career journey has probably. It may be different than a lot of folks. Right. I think to your point, some folks tend to, you know, kind of narrow in on an industry and get like very specialized. Right. So they’re, they’re deep in sort of like one industry or one vertical. Get one vertical. and I would say that I Think for me, I think, you know, the way that I’ve thought about my career is that, like, industry to me was not always the most important thing. I was always more curious about, you know, what is the organizational or brand, you know, sort of challenge, right. What’s the opportunity, what’s the transformation that they’re looking to go through. I would also say that, a couple other things that I looked at was that I am incredibly curious. Right. And so I think, like, things like white space and having to really innovate, you know, in the areas of, you know, customer and story retelling and brand building, like, all of those things were like, I was like, always drawn to those things. Right. So when you look at the brands that I’ve worked for, there was always a moment, you know, in the roles that I stepped into, where that was the reality. Right. So there was something that was happening through the transformation. There was something that, that was happening in terms of just like trying to elevate the brand or trying to, you know, create new avenues of, revenue or growth that I was always drawn to. and so I think that for me, that’s, that’s kind of how I have built my career. And so when you look at my resume, that is exactly what you see, right? It isn’t sort of the psych vertical specialization is very much more about kind of just, those, those maybe similarities between those roles.

>> Craig Gould: You know, we’re, we’re like 20 episodes into, this podcast. We’re just talking to C suite people at this point. And that’s. It’s kind of the goal. and what, what’s interesting is, you know, I’ve spoken to 20 people. I would say probably 20% of, of the folks I’ve spoken to said that their first job was in public relations and then they went back to business school. And, you know, it became something different, whether that was, you know, a chief legal officer eventually or, or, you know, a CMO or this or that. And so I’m, I’m curious that crossover there. And I’m guessing that there’s something beneficial about public relations and, the people skills that go in and goes into it and the storytelling. Right, right. And I’m beginning to see that maybe that’s a useful first job for people. You know, can you talk about some of those things that maybe you still carry with you?

>> Linh Peters: Yes, no, I would definitely say that I think there are, you know, elements of public relations and that as a profession that have been extremely helpful to me. So I think, you know, to your point, like, storytelling is incredibly important. and I think storytelling is important, because you really have to understand, you could talk about like, you know, pick a specific topic, but you have to be able to, you know, create different narratives for different audiences, right? So when you talk about, you know, your storytelling for your external customer, your external consumer, that’s going to be very different for versus like what you tell your internal employees, right? If you think about within an organization, your storytelling and kind of, you know, how you talk about things and present things needs to vary very differently based on like, your level of leadership. Right? The way that you would talk to a board is going to be very different than how you would actually, you know, engage your team. So I think the storytelling piece is really important. I think the other piece around, public relations is that at the end of the day, you are trying to influence or gain buy in or gain consensus. And so when you think about as a CMO and as a marketer, that is a critical skill. The ability to be able to not only present a strategy, but also be thoughtful and artful in terms of how you talk about that. So I think that that ability and sort of that outcome that you’re trying to Dr. you know, I think public relations and sort of the skill set there is very applicable and very transferable. When you’re talking about, you know, being a CMO and being a C suite executive, then I think the other piece is that, you know, I think communication, especially now in this day and age is incredibly important. and I think oftentimes, you know, in this day and age, when we think about technology, when you think about remote and sort of like all of these different things that we’re dealing with in terms of just, you know, trying to run a business, trying to operate, trying to be a leader, communication, I feel like is so important, right? Your, your tone, your message, you know, how you, you know, the mediums that you choose to use, all of those things are factors. And I think, you know, when you’re in public relations and this is sort of like your job and sort of like the way that you need to operate, I think you’re much more thoughtful about it. I think you slow down in order to like, move faster. and so I think those types of things, I think have been highly beneficial for me in my career.

>> Craig Gould: Can we kind of talk about the practicalities of working in marketing? I’ve worked in marketing departments before. I’ve, you know, my career has taken me in lots of different directions. It’s come up on the. The podcast before that. You know, my personal experience was that marketing executives, a lot of times those teams have really short tenures. They’re kind of brought in and pushed out in really shorter windows than other parts of the business. And the company I was working for was. Was run from folks that came from the operations side. And they. They saw kind of marketing as, you know, as, a call center. And, you know, if it’s not working, get me. Give me another coach that can get us, you know, more wins. Can you kind of talk about the practicalities of. Of how it just seems the life of a marketing executive is one where you better be comfortable with change?

>> Linh Peters: I would 100% agree. And I think, like you said, I think we’ve all read the statistics, right, that the CMO is probably the shortest tenured C suite position. and I would say that there’s probably. And I. And I honestly feel like that’s probably gotten. It’s become even more challenging, right? Especially in this, in this, you know, sort of like time period where you have so much change. There’s just a lot of macro, you know, factors, that you’re dealing with. There’s things that you’re dealing with, I think, just changing workforces, all those things. And I think the challenge is that, you know, when you think about the modern cmo, I think more than any other C suite position, I think they are truly expected to do it all, right? They are expected to build a brand, they are expected to drive growth. They are expected to really be often as knowledgeable in technology as their counterpart. Right? Who’s running that department. they have to be a cultural leader, right? So I think both both internally and externally to an organization. and so I think when you think about all of that, I think there, that, that. That is a recipe for, I think, short 10 years, right? Because I think all of those things take time and energy to not only build and scale, but also to see results. And I think in an environment where, you know, we still, a lot of organizations and brands still, you know, live, day. Day by day sales. And that is a really, tough recipe, I think for any, you know, tenured, experienced, incredible, leader to be able to navigate. Right? So not even like a cmo. I think you put any C suite person in that role and I think they would have really tough time, you know, kind of managing those elements well.

>> Craig Gould: I mean, it just seems like it’s a tough ask to Inherit a brand, guide a brand. If you know that, 10 years are short to begin with, it’s not like you can radically change a brand within three or four years. I mean you, you’ve, you’ve inherited a certain amount of things that you have to see through. and I guess my question is like, how much creativity do you have? Given the knowledge that if I want something different, I need to pivot from what was there before, but I also need it to pay off before people become restless, it’s a bit of a dichotomy that can be tough to wrestle with.

>> Linh Peters: I would agree. And I think the challenge is that, you know, when you’re coming into an organization, like you said there, the way that I’ve always approached my roles, it’s like there’s obviously things that you need to be able to deliver short term, right? So like what are the low hanging fruit? Like what are those wins that you can, you know, start to demonstrate to the organization? But often the things that are going to be the most meaningful and what I fundamentally believe will really help to set an organization, a brand up for long term success takes time to pivot, right? Because like, truthfully, those things often do not fall within the remit of marketing. Right? Those things are operational issues. Those things are, you know, merchandising or product issues. Those things are, issues I think, that sit outside of marketing. So you don’t necessarily have, you know, control or ownership over those things, but you have to be able to partner with your counterparts in those functions to be able to change, you know, what, what that looks like and how that shows up for the customer, the employee, whoever that might be. And so I think more than any other role, I think, you know, not only are you as a cmo, are you having to execute, you are constantly having to educate, right? And so that, that takes, that takes time and energy. And so I think it is a position, I think that is unique because I don’t think that any other C suite executive probably has to execute and educate at the same time, right? They, they. I think everybody understands what a CFO does, everybody understands what a COO does. But I think as a marketer, you have to come in and you have to really spend time and energy. I think, focusing on the element.

>> Craig Gould: Too is the quantity of data that we have now, is that a blessing or a curse? Or is it a question of how good your data is?

>> Linh Peters: I would say that I think it’s a blessing and a curse. and I think it kind of goes back to, I think when you talk about data, I think oftentimes they assume that is like, the marketer’s responsibility. and, you know, when you think about data, that has to really be an enterprise strategy and there has to be like a roadmap and there has to be alignment across the organization about what that looks like. And I often tell people, I think it kind of goes back to, like, marketing. I think marketing and the things that we are asked to do in terms of, you know, brand building, performance marketing, whatever that element is, all of that, a lot of that is based on data. And so, you know, you have to be able to, you know, have those hard conversations about, like, is your data, Is your data, you know, optimal, Right? Is it, Is it consistent? Is it accurate? And so a lot of times when I’ve stepped into my roles as a marketer and we’re trying to do, you know, these things that, marketing’s asked to do around personalization, you know, and sort of all these cool new things in terms of performance is that oftentimes the data, is not in a good place. Right. And so you’re having to spend time and energy with the cio, the cto, the chief Data officer, whoever that might be, to fix those things. But that takes time and energy. And so there, there is, it kind of goes back to that dichotomy of what you said of like, if you actually want to try to move, truly move the needle on the business and really drive performance and results, you’ve got to spend time and energy fixing that thing that is going to take, you know, is not going to necessarily show up tomorrow.

>> Craig Gould: I, I know that you’re, you’re doing some advising these days in, in the AI space. How do you see AI coming alongside the marketing head to help with, some of these headaches?

>> Linh Peters: You know, I think AI is going to be, incredibly important. And I think there are probably two camps that I see AI really helping as a marketer. Right. So I think there is a component around, you know, sort of like, creativity and not necessarily replacing creative, but just giving you the ability to, you know, create more assets and create more content and just give you, like, more to work with. Right. In terms of just being able to storytell the other piece, which I think we, as CMOs, we probably don’t talk about as much, but I think is really sort of the unlock for a lot of organizations is around process and operations and execution. And so I think for me, when I think about that element it is not necessarily trying to completely replace people, but it’s like taking those tasks or those responsibilities off of people’s plates so that you could give those folks on your team more time and more energy to focus on things like innovation and creativity. Right. So I think there’s huge, huge, unlocks as it relates to, you know, process and execution and operations that I feel like a lot of organizations are starting to explore. But the challenge is when you think about, you know, making that investment, I think it’s a lot harder to prove that out to, you know, the finance organization, the cfo, because when you’re talking about things like, you know, gaining efficiencies, it’s a different story than say you’re going to take something that’s going to drive growth. And so I think that’s the challenge, I think of a lot of organizations is that I think that’s where the unlock is. But it’s harder to quantify and justify that spend versus saying we’re going to invest in something that’s going to drive the top line.

>> Craig Gould: What’s keeping CMOs up at night these days? What are the things, where’s the main source of anxiety? Because I mean it’s bound to be there.

>> Linh Peters: I think it is. I still feel like, I think in talking to a lot of my peers, I still feel like it’s probably a lot of the same things. And the issue is, I think we haven’t necessarily solved some of those issues and challenges. It feels like we’ve just added more to the plate. So I think there is this element of, I think the job has become unsustainable. I think oftentimes, I use the analogy of oftentimes the cmo, you’re being handed the keys to rocket ship without like fuel, maybe half the crew and then a map that keeps changing. Right. So I think it’s, I think, I think it’s hard to come into role and be like, okay, how am I going to be successful when, when I think the job and the scope and the responsibility keeps getting bigger. I also think that, I think there continues to be, you know, what I would say like is board level misunderstanding of marketing. Right. So I think many boards and CEOs still don’t fully understand the long term value of brand or, or how to balance you know, performance, and equity building. Right. I think those, those two things are very important. I think, you know, oftentimes, you know, I will talk to folks about CMO roles and they’ll be like, oh, are you, are you a brand builder or are you a performance marketer? And I’m like, well, you have to, you have to be both, right? You can’t be one or the other. I think, especially in this day and age, and the other factors that I think continue to, you know, I think, have CMOs really focus on is that, you know, they are expected to have full accountability. Right. So you’re having to drive, you know, sales and transactions and customer experience to all these things. But again, you don’t necessarily always have, the direct ownership over those things. Right. And so I think like, again, like, when you think about the customer experience, you know, so many elements of marketers, that’s part of their job, but oftentimes that doesn’t sit in their organization or it’s very fragmented across the enterprise. And so it’s really hard to have like one strategic roadmap or one point of view on that. and I think, finally, I think, you know, when you think about some of the things that a lot of brands are wrestling with, right. In terms of, you know, those societal conversations. Right. So De and I, sustainability, politics, you know, CMOs, I think more than any other C suite role, they’re at the forefront of those conversations. Right. So you’re, on top of that, you’re having to really kind of think about brand perception, brand risk, brand reputation. And again, those things take, you know, a lot, a lot of time and energy to make sure that you’re helping the organization, do those things correctly.

>> Craig Gould: Yeah. And, you know, when, when you start talking about some of those things on the list that you just went down, some, of the brands you’ve been with are right up there at the top of, of the news cycle over the years. You know, whether that’s Target or Starbucks, opportunities to, get a win or are very visible foible. I don’t know if your firsthand, if you have firsthand insight of exactly how stressful those situations can. Because, I mean, it, it goes from a marketing opportunity to all of a sudden you’re in meetings with crisis management.

>> Linh Peters: You are. Well, and I would say that I think it’s even, you know, it’s even like, over the last couple of years, I would say that it’s become even more, you know, frightening. so, you know, when I was at, you know, Walgreens, we had a situation where we had an incredible, you know, PR crisis communication. And I remember I was, you know, this has happened the, the morning of And I was actually going to speak at a conference and I actually had, you know, HR and you know, our, our head of comms call me and say, we, we fear for your safety. We are not sure what’s going to happen. It wasn’t even about, you’re going to say the wrong thing in the, you know, in your, in your conference or anything like that. It was literally like we just are concerned that something might happen to you. And so when you think about it, like I have, over the course of my career, that has never happened, right where, where you have to fear for your physical safety. But I’ve talked to a lot of executives right where you, where this has become such a, it’s not just about your professional life. It becomes something that you have to worry about from your personal life and you have to worry about your family. I’ve had other executives that I’ve worked for where it was like a very real thing and they had to, you know, hire security for their family. So I think it kind of just, again, it kind of adds to that, that, that toll and that stress on the cmo because oftentimes you are seen as like the face of the brand. Right. And so it is just, I feel like we’re kind of in, we entered in an era where those things I think are just, you know, very real. And I think those are things that a lot of executives are having to deal with. And so that’s just a tremendous amount of pressure.

>> Craig Gould: You know, I talked to a lot of former CEOs, current CEOs, and you know, I’ll invite people onto the podcast. And I had had one former CEO, we arranged a call. She wanted to, you know, kind of explain to me why she was, you know, turning it down because, you know, her tenure ended at a place where she had security guards out front, because of the death threats. And she’s like, I don’t know if I’m ready to put my face back out there. And I’m not sure if I’m ready to put my voice back out there. And I mean, that’s, that’s incredibly intimidating. And, and I mean, just look at what’s happened in the last year with UnitedHealthcare. and even how are the culture’s reaction to that, that there was such a large subset that wanted to cast that person as a hero? I mean, it’s incredibly disturbing. Especially if you’re in the C suite, right?

>> Linh Peters: Absolutely. I think that was probably, like you said, a wake up call for a lot of leaders, right? And just like you said, just, and that’s a hard. Right. I think in this day and age when information is so available and people can, you know, will find you and track you down and all those things, it’s just, it’s like you said, it’s, it makes you, it makes you kind of rethink, is this all worth it? Right? Is this what I’m doing professionally, you know, worth it personally for me and my family? And so I think that is something that we, you know, five, 10 years ago, I didn’t have to ask myself that question. Right. But I think a lot of leaders think about that now.

>> Craig Gould: What do you think about the CMO rising to the CEO role? I’ve had folks on before that kind of went from CMO to CEO, and it seemed like a really good fit for this particular person. Arlyn Davich was, you know, is now CEO of a coffee brand again. You spent time at Starbucks. You know, coffee, in a lot of ways it, in a lot of ways it’s a commodity. And it really comes down to how, how you build a brand, how you build a vision for people to kind of come alongside. You know, have you ever thought about steering the entire ship for a product service company that, that would benefit from a strong brand? Does that make sense?

>> Linh Peters: That totally makes sense. no. I, I, I, I would agree that I think, you know, CMOs absolutely can be amazing, CEOs. And I’ve had the good fortune of working for leaders in that respect. Right. When I was at Ulta Beauty, Mary Dillon was our CEO. And Mary rose up through the ranks as a cmo. And I saw firsthand, the perspective that she brought to the organization and how that helped to inform not only, Ulta and its growth strategy and go to market and sort of how it showed up, but it was also incredibly, I, think, her vision for understanding the customer was also incredibly, influential in terms of helping to build the culture at Ulta. Right. And when you think about having to engage a workforce and really kind of establish what you want that brand to be internally, that was really important for her. And I think she did a phenomenal job. I think if you look at Ulta and the success that they’ve had, I think Mary was absolutely, a key, leader in that respect. I’ve also had the good fortune to work for other CMOs that have gone on to be CEOs. And I think the thing that I think that CMOs bring is that, you know, they they have, you know, highly transferable skills. Right. So I think the best CMOs that I’ve worked for, they are, amazing storytellers, but they are equally, talented in strategy and leadership and sort of like understanding the business. And so I think when you kind of put those, you know, behaviors and skill sets together, I think that is exactly what you would want to be able to lead an enterprise and a brand. Right. I think, I think the commonalities there are incredibly important. And so I personally, would love the opportunity to be a CEO someday. And I think, bring that perspective. And I do find it very comforting that I feel like, there’s more of that happening in terms of, the CEO that you see kind of, landing. I think a lot of them are former CMOs, so I feel like we’re heading in the right direction. so I think it’ll be interesting to kind of see, you know, what happens the next five to 10 years. Right, in terms of just like CEOs and sort of what that, profile looks like.

>> Craig Gould: Can you tell me about what you’re doing these days? Because it looks like you’re doing advising and coaching, which sounds like two different things. Almost like, you know, advising organizations, you know, teams of people, and then coaching kind of one on one, helping people gain insights and to maybe achieve their, their personal and career goals a little bit. Can you, can you talk about what you have your hands in these days?

>> Linh Peters: Sure. you know, I, Yes, I, I would say that I’m doing kind of all the above. and I’m actually really enjoying it, because I feel like it has given me the opportunity to, you know, sort of like leverage my. The depth and breadth of my experience, but all the things that. But also the things that I’m very passionate about. So I am doing executive coaching, right. So I’m working one on one with, individuals. And a lot of those conversations are focused on, you know, career development, you know, helping them, you know, identify, you know, sort of their vision for their careers and sort of like how to be successful in current roles and, you know, everything from that to helping people find new roles. So I’ve really enjoyed it. I benefited. I worked with my executive coach for about 12 years, and so I know firsthand, how valuable it is to have somebody who can write alongside you and, you know, be a strategic thought leader and a partner and an advisor. and so for me, it’s just like the ability to do that for others has been incredibly rewarding. the other piece that I’m doing is interim and fractional work which I think, you know, I think a lot of folks are doing now. Right. I think it’s just sort of like the, the way, whether, whether it’s because of you know, the way that the industry is shaking out and sort of like the, the changes with the C suite or whatever that might be. But I have really enjoyed that. I think it has given me the opportunity to you know, get involved with brands and organizations that I might not have otherwise. But I think each of them, you know, has a different opportunity or challenge that they’re trying to solve. You know, so I’ve stepped into interim, interim roles for chief marketing and Digital Officer. I’ve done fractional roles where I’ve kind of stepped into a role where they didn’t have that capability within my M. Organization. And so it’s given me the opportunity to work for different type of, different type of companies. I think most of my career has been big public brands and now you know, I think with my my work now I’m working with private equity, you know, enterprises. I’m working with organizations that are still like founder led. And so I think the ability to I think have come in and have very strategic conversations and I think you know, help drive meaningful impact in what is generally a very short period of time has been really wonderful. It’s kind of like you’re, you’re able to see sort of the influence and the impact that you have. and the other piece is really more advisory work. And so that is everything from you know, talking to CEOs and founders, it’s talking to. I sit on a couple of advisory boards for AI companies and sort of sort of some other up and coming technology, brands. And so it’s really just been, I mean incredibly rewarding I think just in terms of being able to really work my brain in a lot of different ways.

>> Craig Gould: Part of your description there sounded like you’re having to put what’s in your head into practice and like verbalize what your own philosophy is. Right. Like I, you know, I’ve spent a point in my life where, where I was working as a teacher and it was in a subject area that you know, I had a lot of experience in. But it’s like it becomes different when you have to you know, teach it and have it come out of your mouth because you’re like you’re holding Yourself accountable. You kind of, in the course of it just coming out of your mouth, you really, kind of have to turn back and say, well, do I put that into practice? Do I need to hold myself more accountable? Because I’m, I’m telling this person this is what they need to be doing. You know, am I being everything that I, I’m telling them they should be?

>> Linh Peters: Yeah, no, I would agree. And I think it is, it is, it is, it is a pivot, right? I think from sort of like you’re still, in some respects you’re still doing, but to your point, you’re more kind of like teaching and educating. And I think that does come with a certain, you know, responsibility, but I also think it comes with a certain level of freedom, right, Because I think you have the ability to come into an organization, you know, and give your perspective and you know, have like, more honest and thoughtful conversations about things. and I think that’s the piece that I’ve enjoyed, right, Because I think, I think it is a different. It’s less about like, you know, sort of like proving yourself in the role and more about, you know, sort of like being a thought partner and you know, a strategic partner in helping, you know, other founders and CEOs and C suite executives. And so that’s just it for me. It just feels, like more impactful, that I’m able to, you know, focus on that type of work.

>> Craig Gould: You know, you mentioned private equity. It seems like there’s the opportunity for someone at your career stage to find the right private equity partner that would come back to you time and again to help them because they can see that there’s opportunity in this investment and they want somebody that they can trust and that they’ve seen perform. Do you see that being the case where there’s the opportunity to develop a relationship with a particular firm and, and kind of come back to the table again and again with them to, to help them in, in the transitions of these companies.

>> Linh Peters: I absolutely think there’s a huge opportunity in that respect. And I think, you know, I had the good fortune of working recently with a private equity backed, company. And that was, that was sort of like my part of my goal, right, was to establish myself and build that relationship and you know, be able to clearly articulate and show the impact of having, you know, somebody with my experience, you know, as part of their, you know, team and to be able to come in and be like a true, like you said, an operating partner, I think it’s still I think for some firms, I think it’s still, it’s, it’s kind of the same challenge I think you find in some corporations, right, where I still think they don’t truly understand the value, you know, having a cmo, you know, enroll in what that and what that can be and how that can be, you know, a long term investment. And so I think it comes down to kind of, you know, finding the right partner in that respect. But I think it’s a huge opportunity. I’ve seen a lot of my peers, I think, want to enter that space. and I think some have been more successful than others. But I think it’s definitely, you know, I think there’s a lot, there’s a ton of interest, you know, I think from others that I’ve talked to.

>> Craig Gould: If I were to ask you to give advice to a, mid level executive vp svp, they’re not sure they’re in the right company. They’re not sure how to get from where they are to where they want to be. What advice from your experience can you provide to those that are trying to navigate what has been a good career and try to get to their career goals of the exceptional career. What can they do to, to help facilitate that?

>> Linh Peters: That’s a great question, and a question that I get often and I would say that I think a few things that I would recommend is, you know, I think number one, one of the things that I did early on in my career, gosh, probably 10 or 12 years ago, is that I basically developed a like a career roadmap. Right? And so I think like putting thought and time and energy into identifying, you know, what your leadership vision is, what you you know, aspire to be. And I think sometimes when people talk about aspirations, they talk about job titles. And for me it’s more about how do you describe, you know, what you want to be able to do and achieve. Right. What are those responsibilities that you want to have? What is the impact or influence that you want to be able to have? Because sometimes that shows up differently in one organization than the other. Right? So I think like, don’t get too hung up on job titles. I think the other piece is that I think you do have to, you know, really focus on and prioritize. Like what are the things that are most important to you? you know what I think people sometimes don’t realize is that that changes. Right? And so you have to be able to Kind of put that on paper, but then go back and revisit that and kind of see, like, how you need to adjust, you know, your aspirations or, you know, the things that you want to be able to achieve with your career based on what’s happening in other aspects of your life. the other piece that I would say is, like, I often tell people, like, don’t worry about the job title. You know, I think sometimes people get fixated on, you know, showing sort of like, that progression from a job title perspective. But I always tell people, like, that job job titles, you know, vary in organizations, they don’t mean anything in some organizations and other organizations, they mean a lot. And so think about, you know, the experiences that you’re gaining. Think about the tools and sort of the skill sets that you’re adding to your toolbox, because that’s what recruiter and executives want to see, right? They want to see kind of how you’ve progressed in terms of responsibility or capabilities or influence. and then the last piece that I would say is that, you know, I think, really being thoughtful about your career, and being able to articulate the why. So every time, you know, every time I talk to a recruiter, they want to know two things. They want to know why you left a job, and they want to know why you took another job. And I think sometimes, you know, you have to kind of make sure that you’re thinking about that ahead of time at a time before you make that. Make that next move, right? Because you want that storyline and that narrative to make sense, right? In terms of, like, the. The why behind your career.

>> Craig Gould: So, you know, one thing that’s come up multiple times, or in terms of, like, the pieces of advice is, ah, always return the executive recruiter’s call, even if it’s. Even if it’s not the time. You know, even if you’re, you know, if the timing’s wrong, if the opportunity’s wrong or whatever, don’t turn down the opportunity to maintain, establish and maintain a relationship with a recruiter because they may come back to you at the right time next time, or you may find yourself at a point where you. You need their help finding the right person. And would you agree? I guess is I would 100% agree.

>> Linh Peters: And I think the other piece that I would tell folks is that, you know, a lot of the calls that I get from recruiters nowadays aren’t even for jobs for me, right? It’s like, hey, do you have anybody in your network that you would Recommend. And so I think, you know, I, I spend a lot of time and energy cultivating that aspect of the relationship too. Right. Because I think one, the fact that they’re asking you means that they value your opinion. Right. And kind of respect, your advice. But I think the other thing is like you want to be able to, you know, kind of like help them as well. Right. Because a lot of these relationships that I’ve have, you know, they’re long standing, right. So it’s a little bit of like a give and take and sort of like a reciprocal relationship. So the more that you can build that, I think that, that, that is, that is very valuable. Right. Because I think they want to see you as a partner as well. So it’s not just about your job and your career, but it’s like how do you help them and you know, sort of like help them find the right talent. So I would 100% agree. I think I always tell people like always take the call. Right. I’ll always. It’s a good, a good opportunity to network, to build you know, additional rapport with somebody to get to know folks. and that, and those are probably, will bode well right over the course of your career if you can kind of have those long standing relationships, within, within a firm so.

>> Craig Gould: Well, Linh I really appreciate your time today, that this has been a great conversation and like I told you before we started recording, I, I think, I think we could talk for, for well past an hour and you know, at some point we’re just going to have to cut it off and I really appreciate your insight and you know, I wish you all the best in, you know, all the things you have your hands in at this point in your career, particularly just. Thanks for being my guest today.

>> Linh Peters: No, I appreciate it. Thank you. And I appreciate what you’re doing. I feel like these types of you know, conversations are really helpful for folks. Right. And I appreciate, you know, your questions and I think being thoughtful about the things I would assume are on people’s minds. So I appreciate you, giving me the opportunity to share my perspective.

>> Craig Gould: Absolutely.