HANNAH GORDON

>> Craig Gould: Hannah Gordon, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast. Hannah, you’re the former chief legal and administrative officer for the San Francisco 49ers. Former executive at the NFL Management Council, named one of football’s most influential women by NFL.com, honored as a game changer in 40 under 40 by sports business Journal, recognized by the athletic in their NFL 40 under 40 list. A passionate advocate for diversity and inclusion in sports and a vocal proponent of authentic leadership, joy in work, and strategic self reflection. That’s a lot. I feel like I want to talk about all of it, but with my conversations with executives, I love to start with one common question, and that is, what are your memories of your first job?

>> Hannah Gordon: Oh, I guess it depends how you define your first job. when I think of my first job, I think of, watering my neighbor’s, plants while they were out on vacation because it was the first time I got paid to do work. and a lesson I learned there, was to make sure you shut off the water when you’re done and also to admit when you make mistakes, because I didn’t. And I blooded their neighbor’s backyard, and I was very mortified. but it was a good lesson learned, and in terms of sort of more adult work, I did an internship at Dance magazine, after my freshman year of college. And that was a wonderful experience because I got to learn a bit about media, and I got to see kind of a small team operate. It was about a 20 person executive office. And it was a wonderful experience as well.

>> Craig Gould: I think I’ve heard you say that it was a similar communications sort of role that opened your eyes to working in the world, of sports, right?

>> Hannah Gordon: Yes. When I was a freshman at ucla, I was very homesick and I would watch NBA playoffs which are going on now also, and many years later and Hannah Storm was hosting the halftime show and she was so witty and I thought, gosh, you can just sort of have this repartee with people about sports and that’s your job. Like that’s so cool. and that really led me to the student paper, which led me to sports media, which ultimately then, kind of pushed me in the direction of going back to law school to get my degree to kind of help have a better background for overall business.

>> Craig Gould: So when you were there thinking about going back to law school and you know, you wound up going to Stanford Law, did you have a vision for the future that was in the legal world proper, or did you think about a life in sports in general? Or were you thinking about, you know, becoming not Jerry Maguire, but maybe Hannah McGuire? I mean what, what was, what were you thinking when, when you were going back to law school?

>> Hannah Gordon: So when I first applied to law school, I thought that I wanted to be a sports agent. and yes, that was kind of back in like Jerry Maguire days. and I interned at an agency and I didn’t think it was really quite the right fit for my skill set. and that kind of turned me to figuring out, okay, well, where would my kind of desire to use the law fit best in the, and looked at how would you become a general counsel on an NFL team? So that was kind of my. By the time I got to law school and started as a 1L, that was really my vision was to become the general counsel of an NFL team.

>> Craig Gould: What’s so intriguing about that story is that there are thousands of corporations. You identified a role within one of 32 organizations. You wound up getting what you’re looking for, right?

>> Hannah Gordon: I did. And it’s funny, when people sort of point that out, I always think about, you know, like that it is actually a really neat and amazing thing and I’m grateful for it because you know, there’s also kids who grow up saying they want to be the quarterback of an NFL team And there’s only 32 those jobs. And the difference is to be the quarterback on an NFL team you have to have a lot of God given talent which actually like Kind of narrows down the page, people who are competing for that. Whereas there are lots of great lawyers in the world that could do that job. And so there is quite a bit, I think, of, lack of drive, of focus, of networking and strategy to get there, for sure.

>> Craig Gould: A lot of my listeners, I think, are trying to work through their own strategy for their own careers. And so what advice can you give someone who’s trying to figure out what that strategy to get from, a face and a name amongst the huddled masses of. Of law school grads to, you know, becoming someone who’s known and considered for the role that you’re looking for?

>> Hannah Gordon: Yes, well, to take it a little broader than just law school grads for a second, then I’ll focus on kind of them in particular, because I do think they have to have a unique skill set. I think that we don’t talk to young people enough, and we don’t even talk even to adults sometimes, as honestly as about the importance of networking. You know, we tell them, you know, that you study hard, you get good grades, you work hard, you do good work, and those are all essential and very important. But they’re not enough by themselves, unfortunately. We, we’re human beings, we’re social creatures. People want to help people that they know. and especially now, where, when you’re applying, your resume is not even being seen by a human being. so it’s very hard to win the game of, like, convincing an algorithm that you should move to the next level. and what is the most effective is finding a person that knows somebody who knows somebody there who could. Who’s willing to introduce you. so I think really understanding the power of network and the power of people is critical. secondly, for people, especially who happen to be lawyers, I always do tell young lawyers, like, you need to become excellent at your craft because this is competitive and you have to have something of value to offer. oftentimes when people want to work in a very competitive field, it can’t just be that you think it’s cool or that you’re a fan of it. Like, if, you know, there are hundreds of millions of people who are fans, otherwise these wouldn’t be big industries. so you really have to define, like, what is the value I want to add? What is the thing that I would like to bring to the table, and kind of hone your craft in that way?

>> Craig Gould: So what is it that you brought to the table?

>> Hannah Gordon: I think that I have, I have the technical skills as a lawyer, which, Which Lots of people do. But I think what I sort of received the most compliments on was the bedside manner. So the ability to translate, between different groups of people, different departments, different kind of, specific sort of ways that people approach problems. and I’m very practical, probably occasionally like a little too blunt, but, but mostly that I want to get to the solution, and do it quickly and efficiently. And so I think that resonated with people.

>> Craig Gould: Have you ever done Clifton Strength Finders? I mean what I have.

>> Hannah Gordon: I love cliftonstrength.

>> Craig Gould: Yeah, I just, I, I’m just really curious what, what your strengths are because I mean there’s like connection and relator and strategy.

>> Hannah Gordon: Relator is one of my five achievement competition. communication is that I’m going to forget what my fifth one is because. Oh, and perseverance. So a lot of mine are like fairly similar to each other. but yeah, they’re, they’re. You’ve, you already were picking some of them out.

>> Craig Gould: I feel like what I’m hearing is that doors opened beyond what your qualifications on paper because of relational skills. Right. And your ability to make relationships, manage relationships strategically, identify maybe what relationships should be formed. Did your early days in communications, did that help, you know, kind of foster that lens?

>> Hannah Gordon: Absolutely. I, I mean I think probably true for everyone when you look back at your career, but certainly truth for me is every role I ever had served me throughout my career. So starting as a journalist at UCLA was a perfect like entree into what I would do later because I had to hone my oral and written communication skills. I had to get people to talk to me. Right. Like that, that is rapport building is such an essential skill for journalists and it served me so well throughout my career. and I think also understanding both the sort of like immediate rapport building, but also what does it mean to build long term trust with your subjects? And so I think that those, all of those skills, have been so valuable in business.

>> Craig Gould: As a female executive in a predominantly male industry. What, what challenges have you faced? Was it obvious to you the, the doors you were, you were trying to, to knock down as you were, as you were doing it or you know, did you just have a positive mental attitude that these are the relationships I need to build and if I keep the course, doors are going to open? I mean, how conscious was it that you were, you were going places that a lot of females haven’t been in that industry?

>> Hannah Gordon: Yeah, I think it was conscious. I think that For. For women, I think some of what you navigate changes over time and over position. So, for example, when I was very young and also in lower power positions, you know, the challenges you face are more like overt sexual harassment. Whereas when you get older and more powerful, you know, people are like, oh, that’s not the person to do that. However, you can face a lot more covert discrimination. You can have people who are undermining you, people who are talking behind your back in a way that they would only do about females in language that people only do so speak about females. and. And just sort of, you know, assumptions. Like, some assumptions probably, you know, similar to when I was younger, where it’s like, they think you’re the person who’s supposed to get the coffee. like, they think, like, oh, you must be the secretary. but some. That is more just, are people comfortable having you at the table? Are people comfortable having in the room? Do they, you know, do they want to go golf with you or drink with you on the weekend? Probably not. Do they put you in the group text? Maybe not, because it might be awkward. so I think it can shift based on your position.

>> Craig Gould: I’ve heard you tell a story about a manager coming or one of your bosses coming to you and say, this particular person on the staff is excluding you, and I feel like you’re owed the knowledge of knowing that this person is kind of circumventing you. You tell a story about actually confronting the person. Right?

>> Hannah Gordon: Yeah. So I tell the story in the book. it was. At first, it was actually a colleague who came and, wanted to flag it, but also was very clear that they wanted nothing to do with it. Like, it was like, I don’t want to get involved in this. I don’t want to, you know, damage my own political standing here. But I’m, you know, like you. This is a real problem, and you should be paying attention to it, which I appreciate it. And I also appreciated the honesty that they were honest, that they didn’t want to sacrifice their own role in that. and eventually my boss did come to me, and we had a very funny sort of Tom Hanks, Gina Davis moment. If you go all the way back to the old baseball movie, where I started, he said I had to tell my direct boss who he was the boss of. and I started to tear up, and, like, a tear started fall down my eye, and he said, there’s no crying in football. And he was sort of, like, startled by my tears. And I actually Think it’s also a great example of, I think that too often cross gender sort of reporting people are more nervous to have those difficult conversations. but it’s actually really important. And it was really good that he did have the conversation with me. And even if he was startled by my tears, that we kind of were able to go past that. and I did come and talk to the individual who’d been excluding me. and his reaction was, you know, not good. It was. He said, this is not the Oprah show. I’m not here to entertain you. and that was such a good turning point for me in my career where I’ve been such a people pleaser. Up until that point, I just wanted to win him over. I just wanted him to like me. And I finally in that moment, realized he was never going to like me. And that was actually very liberating. It was very freeing to realize there’s nothing I can do to win this person over. So why don’t I stop spending all of my energy on this and spend my energy elsewhere? And it really ended up, I think, helping not only catapult kind of my career and my focus being elsewhere, but also just. It was such an important life lesson and business lesson. so, yeah, I always tell people that story because, like, those moments that can feel the ugliest and the hardest can also just be the greatest learning experiences.

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>> Craig Gould: You know, my experience is that, well, I mean, I mean, I played for college football. I was an intern at the World League of American Football when I was in college, which became NFL Europe. And so I have a very narrow perspective, on this. But my perspective is everybody who gets into that business, it’s it’s definitely predominantly alpha. And, you know, regardless of whether you’re male or female, these are all people that have kind of achieved at the highest level by having a certain amount of assertiveness. And so did that lead you to becoming more authentic? Or did you. Did that lead you to need to kind of gird yourself to have a thick skin and know what you’re walking into in every. Every meeting?

>> Hannah Gordon: Such a good question.

>> Hannah Gordon: So I think for me, I had grown up very shy, but with this, like, inner assertiveness that was kind of like, always wanting to come out. And so I think for me, in some ways, it was like the perfect environment because. Because it is so tough, it kind of felt like this wonderful challenge and also this place where it was okay to be assertive. and so overall, like, I actually, there were a lot of things I really like about the environment and, like, about kind of the toughness and the bluntness and all of that. And I think it did allow me to be really, like, my authentically best self. that said, I do always want to not caution people, but just be very honest that I think we have a tendency to throw around these cliches about, you know, just be your authentic self and that that’s what great leadership is. and the reality is, number one, you do need to know that not everyone likes your authentic self. Because I think we say it as if, like, you’re going to be authentic and everyone’s going to love it. Everyone’s not going to love it. Some people are going to love it, and some people are going to go, I would like you to go away now. Like, I don’t. I don’t like it. It’s too much. Whatever, you know, whatever their reaction may be, because, you know, everybody’s not for everybody else. Like, so you’ve got to find the right culture fit, for where you’re going to go be your authentic self. and then also, I think we should be honest that, not. Not every type of behavior is equally rewarded in different business environments. So, for example, like, you mentioned very astutely that that’s a very alpha environment, regardless of your gender. So, like, there are men who I know who are actually great leaders for whom that was a terrible environment because their style of being themselves is not alpha. There are also people like me who I can be alpha, but it’s like, wait a minute. That’s not what women are supposed to be like. Why are you acting like that? you’re such a B word. Whatever it is. So we should be honest that it, you know, it’s not as simple and cut and dry. And also that not everyone is equally reward noted for certain behaviors. for both men and women, we box them into kind of what is supposed to be their style.

>> Craig Gould: So did the 49ers organization wind up being that perfect culture fit for you?

>> Hannah Gordon: I think. I mean, I don’t know that anywhere the perfect culture fit, but it was definitely a very good fit for me. And also, all business environments change over time. And I think that’s one of the important things that people need to know as they navigate their career is I have a friend who works at a very large company who is just saying she’s had five different bosses in 10 years like her. The culture where she is is dynamic. It is always changing. and so I think it’s always good to keep in mind, like, you want to find a place that’s values aligned. It doesn’t mean that it’s always going to be values, which is not like a reflection on my experience, but just that, you know, you’re going to work with different people over time. It’s going to be different at different times. But yes, overall it was a very good fit for me.

>> Craig Gould: I think what’s really interesting about the NFL is that, you know, you have these 32 teams and we can think of them as $32 billion corporations. Right. But 80, 90% of them are really family owned businesses. Right. And so family owned businesses. A lot of people run away from opportunities in family owned businesses because there are some complications. Can you talk about that nature of the NFL?

>> Hannah Gordon: Yeah, it’s a, it’s such an interesting sort of contradiction because I find when I’m talking to people, other people in business, if I say, you know, I was the chief legal and administrative officer of a $9 billion business, people are like, whoa, that’s humongous. And it is. And at the same time I say, oh, I was at a company that had 350 employees and it’s like, oh, that’s very tiny. So I think you’re right. There is this contrast where you’re operating in a fairly small, nimble environment in a lot of ways, but that has huge global imprint, just huge brand. and in some ways I think it’s a little bit similar to some aspects of like, the luxury market and like, you know, other areas where there’s like, really big brands that might not be huge companies. and I really liked being in a very dynamic environment because the thing about when it’s that small and when also you don’t have that much sort of process because you are family owned. You don’t have a board with independent directors or things of that nature. I think what’s fun about it is that, it’s a place where you can have a lot of innovation.

>> Craig Gould: It just seems that entering an organization like that, on the administrative side with legal, your hands are going to touch everything. You know, whether that’s, negotiating player contracts or vendor contracts or building a stadium. I mean, it really kind of opened. Opened a door for lots of different experiences. You’ve got a really diverse skill set at this point now, right?

>> Hannah Gordon: Yes. I love. I was actually just talking with someone very recently. I love that when you’re in a sports team, you get to be a true generalist and you get to be deeply involved in every aspect of the business. that said, there is one distinction that I’ll draw, which is that most sports teams, the sort of, sports side operations like player contracts, is done separately from the legal department. Usually, the legal department is more of the business side and contributes on the sports side, but it’s not doing all the player contracts, which was the case for me also. I would get involved in some issues, but most large, most leagues that have a collective bargaining agreement, the player contract is going to be like a set form. and what you’re really investing in in that side is more your data analytics and making sure that you are valuing players correctly. which is not the forte of the lawyer. but yeah, I think that I’ve really enjoyed getting to be a generalist for so much of my career because you get to kind of dabble in a little bit of everything, and also call upon the right experts and then manage that. Like, I think that the type of role that I held, that kind of general counsel role, you’re very much quarterbacking issues where it’s like, okay, who are the specialists we need for this? Can we do this in house? Do we need somebody else? You know, how do we work across departments? And I really like that aspect.

>> Craig Gould: You spent, what was it, 12, 13 years with the 49ers, give or take. But, you know, you. You decided to kind of shift gears. Can you talk about that process of pressing pause, maybe kind of your thought process ahead of that and what life is like in the middle of that pause?

>> Hannah Gordon: Yes. so I, I think in some ways I was just so lucky that I had this dream of becoming, you know, the GC at an NFL team. And it’s a dream that, you know, a lot of people chase, so they’re 40, 50, 60, whatever. And I started working there when I was 29, so I, I kind of achieved so much of what I had wanted to achieve and had so many wonderful experiences that there was, there wasn’t necessarily something I was still looking for there. and I had the experience of having my first child during the pandemic, and that was, for me, perfect in that moment, which was I could be physically with my child and also mentally engaged in work all at the same time. and I liked that. And then she turned one and I was pregnant with my second child. And I was like, whoa, where did the last year just go? Like, how are you already a year old? Like, this goes way too fast. Everyone told me it goes too fast, but it’s really going too fast. and we’d also, the world had returned to being in office. and I didn’t want to do the same thing the second time. I didn’t regret anything about the first time, but it was a different situation. And I’m very adamant that people, parents, both, you know, fathers and mothers, should get to choose the type of parenting and kind of work, whether you want to call it balance or whatever that they want and it’s right for them in that moment. Because what’s right for two different people is different and what’s right for you in two different times can be different. so I decided that I wasn’t going to come back, that I wanted to take at least a year off with my child, which, you know, most industrialized nations support, not only through companies, but through the government, for all people, not just those of us who are lucky enough to work in, you know, high end white collar jobs. and so I did that. And it, it definitely, I almost recommend that everyone does something like that because it really forces you to think about who you are and what your identity is. Because I had said before I left, I was like, I’m not. Like, a lot of people get, I think, too attached when they’re in high profile jobs to the title, to the brand they’re associated with. And I was like, that’s not my identity. Like, I know who I am. and then I actually stopped and I was like, whoa, wait a minute, who am I? Like, you know, my phone doesn’t ring, I don’t have any emails to respond to. Like, even though I didn’t feel attached to a specific brand, I realized at that Time that I had worked in football half of my life on Earth and all of my adult life. And so it was like, oh, who am I if I’m not, you know, doing something like that, if that’s not kind of how other people identify me? and so I think that has been like a really kind of good challenge in a lot of ways. and I though I wanted to totally sit still for a whole year. I did get antsy at, you know, sort of nine months into that and I started consulting. so I’ve been consulting now for the last year. So I’m, I’m sort of in like a quasi pause now. It’s like I get to spend time with my family, but I also get to do projects. And, and that’s still, it’s a, it’s a unique time and space to be, ah, navigating because I was so used to, you know, work kind of being primary.

>> Craig Gould: My impression is that your consulting is keeping your name in the game. I understand that you’re consulting like prospective head coaching candidates.

>> Hannah Gordon: So I consult with a lot of different folks. So I, perspective general manager candidates, but also with entities. So I, and I also am an arbitrator and a mediator. so I’ve done a lot of different projects and one of the fun things has been, it’s been across sports. so some of my most fun work has been like in horse racing. I’ve done work in collegiate athletics. So it’s it’s neat seeing things from different perspectives and challenging yourself that way. Because I was so accustomed to like, okay, it’s not an NFL teamwork, you know, like you kind of know all the ins and outs. and so it’s good to learn new things.

>> Craig Gould: I had a guest on recently, her name’s Tracey Newell and she was a CEO of a technology company. She spent years in Cisco and she tells a story about being mid career and mentor. Kind of telling her, you know, look, you are capable of going all the way to the top and you need to start thinking about that. And she had pushback about, well, am I really capable? And you know, I’ve got young kids, you know, what’s that going to look like for me to be trying to make it to the top and you know, quote unquote, have it all right, well one of the things that she found was that this mentor told her, your kids aren’t always going to be, you know, five years old. Eventually your kids are going to be teenagers. They’re going to be going off to college, and you need to be ready for what capacity you have 10, 15 years from now. I guess, I’m just thinking, has this pause. Not only are you benefiting from developing a deep relationship with your kids, but is it giving you perspective in terms of how you would want to re. Enter and what role you would want to have back in an organization someday? Or is this such a perfect fit that you feel like you’re always going to be the. The hired gun? What do you think?

>> Hannah Gordon: I think it’s more the former. And I think what. What that mentor said was interesting. I had a little bit of the opposite feeling as I was contemplating whether or not to take this type of pause, which is, yes, your kids are not always going to be this young. Which is why I was like, that’s why I need to be here now. Like, because I can work. I like working. So I can work till I’m 60 or 65 or 68. My, my babies won’t be babies then. Like, you know, and especially I think that first year, they’re changing every week. and I really, I didn’t want to miss any of it. And I. And not only, like, miss it. I just wanted to soak up that full experience, because it is so fleeting. And I’m glad that I did. And what I will say, though, is no matter what you try to do to slow time down, it, you know, you can’t. So I still look back and I’m like, what happened? Like, that was just a blur. Like, I thought I just had you. Why are you turning too soon? Like, so I think that, you know, so I. There’s no judgment. Like, just you put your two kids in daycare doesn’t mean that, you know, you’re a terrible parent and that you’re missing something. But, for me, I just felt like I want to, like, pull as much out of this as I can because I know that it is so short and I can’t get it back later. I knew I was going to have more than two kids. So it’s like I’m. I’m never going to have this experience again. so, yeah, I look at it, I guess, a little differently, but certainly, you know, as children age, and I’ve seen this with many other people, your capacity does change. you know, probably not until they’re quite a bit older from what most, most people, tell me. but there, I think that there is that kind of, that desire to make sure that you can reenter. And I think it’s a real, it’s something that should frankly be more to say discussed and more normalized for both men and women. because a lot of people take career breaks for a lot of different reasons. but it can feel very intimidating to think about what re entry looks like.

>> Craig Gould: What sort of advice are you able to give? You know, whether it’s a general manager candidate or a head coaching candidate? I don’t want to pull back the curtain too much because that’s where you’re able to add value. But is it just a matter of like trying to frame for them what’s going through the minds of the room that they’re going to be walking into?

>> Hannah Gordon: No, no, I would say no, because that’s more like straight interview prep, I think, where kind of my value add is that’s a piece of it, but it’s only a piece of it because it’s also about becoming a well rounded executive. Because the way that kind of the track works for most people who are interviewing for those types of jobs is that they’ve come through a specific skill set. Just like at a tech company, you might be like the, you know, you’re the cto, you’re the guy who’s creating all these things, you have a great idea, you want to start a company, all of a sudden you’re the CEO of the company, but all you have is a tech skill background and you don’t know how to manage people and you don’t know how you should structure the organization. Sports is actually very similar. So like, you’ve got somebody who knows how to pick players, but now you’re actually asking them to head multiple departments, to manage all these different personalities, to manage these massive multimillion dollar budgets. and so it’s really about how can you be the most kind of complete executive that you can be?

>> Craig Gould: Those general manager candidates, do we still see the majority of those coming from like the player personnel side?

>> Hannah Gordon: The majority, yes, you do see some, you know, some amazing people, including who came through the 49ers, like Kwesi, Adolfo, Mensah, who come more from the data analytics or cap management side. But still the majority of candidates are coming from the scouting side.

>> Craig Gould: So you’re actually trying to help broaden their skills. And so that doesn’t sound like a quick interview prep. That sounds like helping create an ongoing mindset. You don’t just say, hey, I have an interview next week. It’s almost like, hey, I think I’m at the Place where I’m going to start being considered. Preferably try to get out ahead of that, right?

>> Hannah Gordon: Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s more like just like any executive coaching that you would do for an executive at any Fortune 100 or 500 company. For sure. Yeah. It’s more ongoing.

>> Craig Gould: I mean, it’s hard not to talk about these sorts of roles in the NFL and not think about the role that diversity is playing in these conversations. You know, recently I was listening to a Freakonomics podcast. They had like two episodes talking about the Rooney Rule and talking about, is it working? Is it not? Who has benefited? Have things improved? I know we can’t fix it, but from your perspective, what is the state of diversity and inclusion at this point in the history of the league?

>> Hannah Gordon: Well, I mean, I think you can’t ignore where we are in the history of the United States of America, which is in the midst of a very, direct, open attack on women and people of color. and it’s sort of couched as, you know, the acronym dei, anti. Dei DI is bad. And we’re not actually talking about, like, what do we actually mean when we say that? and I think that it’s important to think about language and the words that we use, because I think a lot of that is really just being coded, frankly, to be an attack on women and people of color, and to eliminate opportunities for them in the sort of false guise of colorblindness, or gender blindness, which doesn’t actually exist. Human. That’s not how human beings perceive other human beings. Like we were talking earlier about relationship. It is human nature to want to help people who remind you of yourself. Right.

>> Craig Gould: Like, similar to me, bias.

>> Hannah Gordon: Right, point exactly. Like, when we’re trying to counteract sort of the systemic problems that we as a society have, we have to look at how human beings actually behave, and what are the systems that we can create to improve our decision making. so I, I think it’s very hard to talk about anything involving diversity right now, like within a specific industry without that being, you know, with the backdrop of, sort of a really a federal attack on the whole concept.

>> Craig Gould: Yeah, I heard somebody saying that. Even just referring to it as DEI allows an atmosphere for dismissing it because it. It just becomes an acronym. But I mean, in actuality, you know, if you were to ask somebody, what is it about diversity that you have a problem with? What is it about equity that you have a problem with? Was it about inclusivity that you have a problem with? Someone May have a totally, they may not have a totally different answer, but they may have a more thoughtful answer than just an acronym that’s been demonized.

>> Hannah Gordon: Totally. And I do think it’s important to have those more, thoughtful conversations and like you said, not just use acronyms. because when you actually look at business and like when I’ve heard kind of some of the big recruiting companies talking, businesses know that this is actually a business advantage to have different perspectives at the table. If you have 10 of the same people, no matter what those people look like, you will not get the type of creativity and innovation that you need. Because everyone’s thinking the same way. I mean, this is true. Even if you were just to look at departments, why do you have a C suite? Because people have to have different backgrounds. Whether it’s finance or legal or something else. You can’t have all the same people and get to the best answers.

>> Craig Gould: So much of our media and so much of, our time in our country is spent thinking about how NFL organizations are managing themselves. It’s really amazing how many millions of people think kind of daily about how NFL teams are managing themselves, whether it’s in the front office or on the front lines with coaching. And it’s really interesting, you know, just even with like head coaching hires, it’s hard to differentiate assistant coaches on the winning team from, you know, okay, what was their role on that team and are they. Well, I don’t want to start naming names, but I think of people from like Bill Belichick’s coaching tree that maybe have gone off to have head coaching jobs and didn’t, have success after a couple of years back in his fold, would go off and not have success again. I always have a little bit of a problem with, you know, there are some hires that are on their third and fourth chance and there are other people with just as strong a resume. Their phone’s not ringing in the first place. It’s a, it’s a really interesting dichotomy.

>> Hannah Gordon: Yeah. So I think that this is a problem in business recruiting as well. I think it’s a problem in a lot of places like where people want to hire somebody who’s had the role before. And so you’re hiring for experience and not for talent or potential. and so you end up with someone who is mediocre at something instead of hiring somebody who would be great if you were just willing to take a little bit of a chance. But people tend to be risk averse, especially at the highest, the higher the position is that you’re hiring, the more risk averse people become.

>> Craig Gould: Tell me about your book. It’s an active journaling to help kind of coach people through some of the lessons you’ve learned. Right. Someone’s sitting next to you at a dinner party and you tell them you have a book. How do you describe to them what’s inside?

>> Hannah Gordon: well, I tell them it is a combination of memoir and, workbook of eight lessons that I learned from football that anyone can apply to their lives to have more victory, more success, and more joy. So the book really grew out of so many people asking me, how do I get where you are? How do I achieve my dream? And it really made me sit down and reflect, like, okay, what, how did I get here? What are the lessons I learned? How can someone else apply those and get the results that they want? and what I realized was that there were eight lessons from football that had really guided me to where I was now. and the reason that it’s a workbook and not just a memoir or a leadership book is that I think that when people apply lessons, they get a lot more out of it. They’re much more likely to actually, like sort of build the right habits. and because I’d gone to plenty of keynotes where I walked away feeling totally inspired, and then two weeks later, I hadn’t actually done anything with that knowledge or information. So eight weeks is enough time for you to actually develop the habit of journaling. You don’t have to have ever journaled before. It’s like, you know, two small pages a day. It’s not like a big, scary blank notebook that you need to fill up. it’s all just like small writing prompts that can take you about five minutes a day of reading and then five minutes a day of writing. and the concept there is that you’re going to not only develop the eight kind of tools, but also that journaling itself is, just a great practice to have. It’s something that actually many of our, you know, leaders of the past, whether it’s George Washington or others, all kept journals, because it’s a great way to reflect. And as you well know, the best leaders are self aware and reflective.

>> Craig Gould: Right. I think that’s one of the aspects that you speak of, which is self scouting something that NFL teams do. They have someone scout them just like an opponent would scout them to identify weaknesses and anticipate where those holes could be filled. Right. Can you talk a little bit about self scouting? And how that applies to someone who’s wanting to apply it to their career or their life.

>> Hannah Gordon: Absolutely. Yeah. I think that self scouting, the first, what I call film study, first lesson in the book, because it is the most important, it’s also the hardest. and, and it’s what journaling is doing for you, every time you’re doing it, which is to essentially play back your own film. So if you were an athlete or a coach, you would have a game, you would go back and watch it. Most of us, unless maybe we have on the, like, fancy Ray Ban glasses that record everything. Now we’re not actually going back and watching real film of our lives, but when we journal, we’re doing the exercise of essentially watching ourselves from the outside, watching ourselves as an objective observer. And then that’s allowing us to see what are our strengths, what are our weaknesses, and just to know ourselves better. Because again, we’re talking about leadership, is about self awareness. We have to know ourselves, before we can know others. And we have to lead ourselves before we can lead others.

>> Craig Gould: Just a couple of weeks ago, I had Sherri Cole, who was a Hall of Fame basketball coach, University of Oklahoma, on. And she, you know, she was at Oklahoma for 25 years. And she always had her players, right after they came off the floor, she would give them a piece of paper and a pen to reflect on what happened during the game, opportunities for improvement, what did they accomplish, you know, what went right, what do they need to work on? And she says that the players hated it. It’s not the time and place that they wanted to be doing that, but there was so much value in it. I hear that come up time and again that we need to carve out time for self reflection. But self reflection only gets us so far because sometimes our perception of who we are and what’s going on may not line up with, someone who’s objectively looking at our situation from the outside. And so maybe that’s more in line with the sage advice of a, of a mentor or someone that is able to kind of sit with you where you are and get advice when you’re playing football. It’s easy. There was always the saying, the eye in the sky doesn’t lie.

>> Hannah Gordon: Yep.

>> Craig Gould: So you can’t get away from it. I could say, oh, I’m having problems with this block or that or whatever, but, you know, the eye in sky is going to say something totally different. And it may be a hard truth that you aren’t ready to admit to yourself.

>> Hannah Gordon: Yes, I do think that if people write regularly, it actually forces out a lot of truth over time. So I think, you know, Julia Cameron, who wrote the Artist Way, she says, like, you can only lie to yourself on the page for so long. so, yes, we all have our kind of perceptions of how things are going. but I do think the more you journal, the more you start to have that more objective look. and that is also why it’s kind of the idea of film study is so important to be able to say, okay, if I were to look at this situation, if I were to just play it back, if I were to look at it from the outside, what does that look like? What were the actual facts? If a camera was recording this, what were the facts that happened versus my story, my narrative about what I think the other person was trying to accomplish or what I think their intent was? and so I think you do have to come at it with that lens. and you’re right, though. Mentors can be very helpful. So there’s a whole chapter in the book about your team and how do you coach, compose your team, how do you get the right sponsors, mentors, what I call road dogs, kind of those people who are going to hold you accountable. we’re going to tell you the truth, as well as a strategic partner. So definitely there is a role for other people in your. In your reflective process, for sure.

>> Craig Gould: Is there any other aspect that you would stress in terms of, that transformation, or should we just point people to Season of Change on Amazon?

>> Hannah Gordon: Well, it’s actually. So the second edition is not on Amazon. It’s only on my website, which is www.hannah-gordon.com.

>> Craig Gould: And so that was going to be my next question. If people want to follow you, if, if someone’s interested in engaging with you as a client or have you come speak at their event or buy season of change. Hannah-gordon.com, right?

>> Hannah Gordon: Yes, that is my website. You can find me there. You can also find me on LinkedIn, which is just my name, or on Instagram, which is Hannah Gordon 510.

>> Craig Gould: Well, Hannah, this has been a delightful conversation. I really appreciate your time and, your generosity with taking time away from your kids to, talk to me about leadership and aspirations and trying to make a way.

>> Hannah Gordon: It’s been my pleasure, Craig. Thank you.

>> Craig Gould: Awesome.